SubClass Balance Issues in release 226

As I did for the 225 version, I am logging some of the xp scores to give a rough idea of balance. I will update this on a periodic basis.

Stats updated on 3rd October, with 71,564 logs. Since we are now running version 227, this will be the final update.

Looking at the XP scores we have recorded, I have limited the selection to players that have been on the map for at least 20 mins.
It is still early days yet, so we need a lot more logs to get a balanced picture, but this will give initial impressions.

And ignoring the results for Dead_Freddo.

Level 41-50
Code:

 SubClass             AverageXPPerMin MaxXPPerMap NumTimesPlayed AverageLevel DistinctPlayers
 -------------------- --------------- ----------- -------------- ------------ ---------------
 None                 41              2326        40             45           2
 General              24              3334        511            45           20
 MonsterMaster        23              2876        916            45           33
 WeaponMaster         19              1935        568            44           21
 Engineer             19              2883        1725           45           51
 AdrenalineMaster     17              2037        547            44           13

The AM is a bit lower than I would have expected. The None is top due to one player scoring well on it.

Level 90-110
Code:

 SubClass             AverageXPPerMin MaxXPPerMap NumTimesPlayed AverageLevel DistinctPlayers
 -------------------- --------------- ----------- -------------- ------------ ---------------
 WM/MM hybrid         50              3006        58             103          6
 MonsterMaster        49              4397        491            99           14
 AM/WM hybrid         40              4474        212            100          5
 AdrenalineMaster     38              4037        285            99           7
 Engineer             36              3867        851            99           20
 AM/Eng hybrid        35              3364        63             99           6
 MM/Eng hybrid        34              2660        172            100          10
 WeaponMaster         33              3190        547            99           12
 WM/Eng hybrid        30              4702        360            98           7
 General              26              2541        192            99           1

Again, more results are required to give confidence in the results. Most have only a few players. But the MonsterMaster may be too strong.

Level 150-180
Code:

 SubClass             AverageXPPerMin MaxXPPerMap NumTimesPlayed AverageLevel DistinctPlayers
 -------------------- --------------- ----------- -------------- ------------ ---------------
 Extreme AM           115             7095        52             159          3
 Berserker            100             6002        12             159          4
 Vehicle Specialist   89              5501        7              168          3
 Extreme Monsters     78              7186        154            161          4
 Sentinel Specialist  68              4841        173            164          4
 Extreme Medic        68              6204        24             157          3
 Tank                 66              4648        169            164          3
 AdrenalineMaster     62              5030        129            164          3
 MonsterMaster        60              4189        88             162          2
 Extreme WM           55              5176        57             164          4
 Extreme Engineer     52              4012        116            165          1
 Turret Specialist    46              3121        7              167          2
 Skilled Weapons      44              4664        63             155          4
 Engineer             40              2993        128            173          5
 WeaponMaster         39              4249        305            164          5
 AM/WM hybrid         37              2904        14             170          2
 AM/Eng hybrid        36              2179        31             178          1
 WM/Eng hybrid        36              2088        33             160          1
 MM/Eng hybrid        33              2126        32             163          3
 WM/MM hybrid         24              924         3              163          2

I expanded this to a range of 150-180 to pick up more entries. None of these results really have sufficient different players to give conclusive results. The Sentinel and Vehicle Specialists look a bit high, and the Extreme Monsters and MonsterMaster also look high. Berserker is scoring highly and the Extreme AM is doing too well - so a nerf is needed.

Character basically maxed
Code:

 SubClass             AverageXPPerMin MaxXPPerMap NumTimesPlayed AverageLevel DistinctPlayers
 -------------------- --------------- ----------- -------------- ------------ ---------------
 Extreme Medic        96              9155        567            685          6
 Skilled Weapons      94              6307        15             339          5
 Extreme WM           92              7030        186            434          7
 Berserker            90              8750        829            703          11
 Extreme AM           88              11350       293            206          10
 Vehicle Specialist   87              7732        33             399          3
 Extreme Monsters     85              9081        716            628          7
 MonsterMaster        72              5761        40             522          5
 AM/WM hybrid         72              5847        48             547          7
 Tank                 68              5865        147            265          3
 AdrenalineMaster     68              5376        382            226          9
 WM/MM hybrid         62              3984        6              289          3
 AM/MM hybrid         60              4372        20             349          3
 AM/Eng hybrid        58              5801        629            293          8
 WeaponMaster         55              4920        982            299          19
 Extreme Engineer     55              3434        15             395          2
 Sentinel Specialist  47              5840        345            302          5
 Turret Specialist    47              4537        16             393          1
 Engineer             42              3554        37             240          2
 WM/Eng hybrid        38              2952        69             244          5
 MM/Eng hybrid        34              2520        53             585          7

Note that different subclasses max at different levels, and that individual player skill has a greater effect than the subclass.

Extreme Medics scores top, but something has to be top and I don't mind a support class being there. Skilled Weapons, ExtremeWM and Berserker are next - and I kind of like it that the foot soldiers can still do well.

Some of the Engineer hybrids down at the bottom.

So, one extra table showing the max achieved regardless of level and duration
Code:

 SubClass             MaxXPPerMap NumTimesPlayed MaxPlayerLevel
 -------------------- ----------- -------------- --------------
 Extreme AM           11350       443            409
 Extreme Medic        9155        972            918
 Extreme Monsters     9081        1369           918
 Berserker            8750        1379           1000
 Tank                 7984        781            390
 Extreme WM           7747        709            641
 Vehicle Specialist   7732        95             407
 AdrenalineMaster     6710        5280           409
 Skilled Weapons      6307        123            462
 AM/WM hybrid         5847        1162           982
 Sentinel Specialist  5840        2115           408
 AM/Eng hybrid        5801        990            408
 MonsterMaster        5761        11980          806
 Extreme Engineer     5021        823            408
 WeaponMaster         4920        12932          964
 WM/Eng hybrid        4826        1324           388
 General              4631        5974           138
 Engineer             4574        18201          408
 Turret Specialist    4537        59             398
 AM/MM hybrid         4372        30             458
 WM/MM hybrid         3984        267            458
 MM/Eng hybrid        2846        483            889
 None                 2520        2610           54

So Extreme AM is top, with the Extreme Medic 2000 below at 9155. So Extreme AM too high. Berserker also high.

In loose terms, hybrids, WMs and engineers at the bottom.

So, looking at the individual XP high scores, and still taking out Dead_Freddo's scores (Not because I have anything against Dead_Freddo, but I am looking at how strong classes are relative to each other. And I am not sure those particular Extreme Medic scores help us do that)
Code:

 LogDate    PlayerName           XPGained    SubClass             Level
 ---------- -------------------- ----------- -------------------- -----------
 2011-07-07 Superlocrian         11350       Extreme AM           246
 2011-03-28 cribbage             9155        Extreme Medic        798
 2011-09-26 cribbage             9081        Extreme Monsters     914
 2011-02-04 [DC]Desert_Wrath     8750        Berserker            886
 2010-12-28 cribbage             8665        Extreme Medic        767
 2011-07-31 Dead_Junkie          8524        Extreme AM           130
 2011-08-16 cribbage             8516        Extreme Monsters     881
 2010-08-05 cribbage             8499        Extreme Monsters     662
 2010-09-23 Elite_Medic(AI)      8494        Extreme Monsters     391
 2011-08-17 cribbage             8254        Extreme Medic        883
 2011-04-19 cribbage             8152        Extreme Medic        822
 2011-01-24 cribbage             7992        Extreme Medic        773
 2011-07-08 Locrian              7984        Tank                 220
 2010-11-15 [WMD]Hobo_Joe        7949        Berserker            405
 2011-07-03 Locrian              7936        Berserker            215
 2010-10-09 [WMD]Hobo_Joe        7901        Berserker            397
 2010-10-17 [WMD]Hobo_Joe        7864        Berserker            401
 2011-08-24 cribbage             7844        Extreme Monsters     888
 2011-05-10 cribbage             7840        Extreme Medic        838
 2011-03-31 cribbage             7780        Extreme Medic        805

so perhaps Extreme AM too high, but only two scores in the top 20. Most entries are Extreme Medic, Extreme Monsters and Berserkers.

I'm not sure that looking at a matrix of numbers one can accurately determine whether a particular class is too strong.

I suggest you delete me and TON from the numbers and look at them again. For instance, that 8499 MaxXPPerMap was mine. I can't really remember which map it was, but it was a small confined space with a bunch of low levels hiding out in the base. This left the map mostly to me and a couple others to kill most of the monsters. If it had been any other mid-level player in any other class instead of me, that max chart wouldn't have extreme monsters at the top. A berserker would probably have had 200 holy crap kills in a row and 15000 xp.

In fact, in the past couple months, I have been on with mostly newer players, and it's easy for a maxed out character to hog all the points regardless of class. I had been playing standard MM for quite a while when I decided to try the extreme monsters again about a month ago. It does score a lot more points than the standard MM. Shouldn't it though?

One thing that needs to be included in any study of subclass strength is direct competition against each other by similarly ranked characters. The times I have scored tons of xp have been on the maps that no other characters over 200 have been around. I am convinced that on a map with any other subclass of similar rank, my score would plummet. Not only that, but I don't normally play certain maps that I know I wont score very many points on, so my average (and therefore the aggregate) is going to be skewed because of it. Put me on megawoot against any regular engineer, not even a subclass, and I'll come in way behind.

So map type has a lot to do with scoring ability of any subclass. The 1-1 maps, the Ironics, the Tutorial Classics, and the Rankins... these are the maps that you will see the extreme monsters dominating. The fall-off-the-edge maps or wide-open-space maps where engineers with turrets or WMs with shock rifles or AMs with their bolts can hit anything that moves, that's when you will see me either decide to find another way to waste my time, or that I am hungry.

In summary, I think those numbers could be misleading as to which subclass is more powerful because it really depends on a lot of factors including, but not limited to: choice of map - whether one chooses to play it and whether it is friendly to one's (sub)class; number, level, (sub)class, and playing style of fellow players; one's own skill level; time of day; and a little luck.

Cribbage, I fully agree with you - numbers are just numbers and need correct interpretation, and can't just be taken at face value.

How good the player is, and how efficiently they utilise the subclass will make a huge difference to the scores. And as you say, what map it is and what other players are on also makes a difference.

I much prefer getting feedback from players informing me which subclasses are overpowered - but that only counts if it is a subclass they are playing rather than a subclass someone else keeps beating them with.

Unfortunately, I usually get complaints about a subclass being too weak, and very rarely get feedback saying a subclass is too strong. We all like killing monsters, and getting high scores, so I understand that people are reluctant to tell me what subclasses are too good to be true.

But without the feedback from the players, what else have I got to go on?

cribbage wrote:

....... I had been playing standard MM for quite a while when I decided to try the extreme monsters again about a month ago. It does score a lot more points than the standard MM. Shouldn't it though?.

That's the point - No. For your character at a given level, every subclass should score the same. The Extremes should just have a different playing style - not more power.

(Of course with the caveat that different subclasses will suit different people better, so even if the subclasses were perfectly balanced, some people would do better as a WM than an AM based on their playing style.)

So to summarise, I do need to balance the subclasses on an ongoing basis, as I believe they are not balanced yet. I prefer getting feedback from players who play subclasses as to which they have played are too strong. In the absence of that I have no choice but to use figures, plus my own understanding. And of course I independently test out each subclass myself on a test server - so I can get my own feel as to which score highest under the same map/bots etc.

I could really do with ALL the high level players playing each subclass available to them about 20 times each, then each high level player telling me from their perspective which are too powerful and which are too weak. i.e. which are more powerful than the base class, and which are less powerful.

Well i feel a the sentinel master is definatly overpowered. Pre subclasses, i would need to really concentrate and play well to score over 2K. it was perfectly possible, but it requiered some skill and hard work. Now, i score over 2K on nearly every map with very little effort. infact, i could probbly score 2K without even fighting. secondly, i can max out all the requiered class specific skills at lvl 170, where as on the turret and vehiccle masters, i am a LONG way of maxing them. I think they need to max out at similar points, especially as the sent master seems to be the easiest and possibly the most powerfull to play.

I also have a problem with the hybrids. To fully utilise the WM/ENG and AM/ENG i would have to spend valuable points on ammmo bonus and adren, which would waste points for my extreme engi classes, which i am not willing to do. i think you need to be able to alter your stats.

I feel the Ion turret and tank are overpowered, but then if they were taken away nobody would play the turret or vehicle master (people rarely do as it is), the knockback on the blasts really needs to go though, its anoying other players.

Well my Adrenaline master character lv 117 can beat any sent specialist, they dont really do that much exp only with sentinels, If you are a Sent Spec and want a great score you have to kill with ur link gun too.
They are not overpowered, they are good the way they are, the map Yro thats is in my screenshot is a map very good for engineers but I also defeated them with my adrenaline master.IF they were killing that much with their sents and just staying in there without using the engineer link gun they would have to score more than this screenies.

And even with my normal engineer could beat a sent specialist and I used a turret with 3 def sentinels

Not even close againts a berserker!! lol

Another AM scoring more than a Sent Specialist.

MM beating a Sent Spec

In other words sents specialists are not that powerful they are balanced, scores say it all

a good AM can "kill steal" a Engi all day long thus out score them,as sents draw a lot of fire to them

MM/Engi (maxed out) feels pretty good ,only played with Def/Healing Sent but still scored OK,needs more Exp healing IMHO
Will experiment with Light sent auto turret later
Engi/WM is fun too well worth giving up 50 pts to ammo (did 65 by accident DOH!) for resupply
just fun being able to roam around for a change

My problem with both the sent master and the monster master is you don't have to do anything. The AM rewards skill, where as these two classes need no skill at all to play. the monsters just shred everything in sight and the sents sap xp out of whole areas of the map. It is also unfair on lower levels, whose kills are stolen se easily. They have to work to get 400xp, where as you can sit in a base and watch your minions demolish everything.

A different subject: Since getting subclasses playing this server has become easier. I can kill stuff much quicker and get higher scores very easily. Is this how its meant to be? or are the subclasses ment to just focus on a small part of your class without increasing your ability to score highly? At the moment i have seen a noticable increase in how easy it is to score highly, and maps seem very easy to complete. I for one feel that there needs to be some harder monster. Or even a whole new "elite" invasion gametype (after our very own elite

if you fancy a harder version of the game for when many high lvls are on. That way lower levels can play on an "easier" version if its just them on the game. When a few sent masters or monster masters are onat the moment, its just a mess of AI controlled monster and sents demolishing the bad guys. Its not fun. I think we need a challenge for these times.

Well the berserker with the increase damage on weapons deadly with flak cannons or shock rifles, AM and Extreme AM with bolts can kill steal easly from any newbie players and they destroy them in 2 seconds while the sentinels take more time to kill a mob, the Extreme monsters with red skaarj can kill a monster in 1 sec but they can only summon one at a time and using other monsters even with increase damage they take their time killing monsters, the pets intelligence is not that good yet.

What we need is new monsters with new abilities its all, almost all of the players know the abilities of the monsters, how they attack, how they move, how they shoot and how u can dodge them, so with this new subclasses we need new monsters with abilities that will take a time to us to study and to get the point how to get rid of them fastly.

the only thing i ask is reward = skill.. rod was nerfed because it used no skill. scent master is the same.. no skill but good exp.

@zslat, one special request, do u have my logs on extreme am? i wish to compare them to normal am.

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

@zslat, one special request, do u have my logs on extreme am? i wish to compare them to normal am.

In build 226 you have only played as an Extreme AM, so you can't compare it. There is no point comparing a 226 Extreme AM against a 225 AM, as there were significant changes for the artifacts.

I take umbrage at the suggestion that I can score 5kxp on a map by simply letting monsters do all the killing.

You will rarely see me bragging about my skill set. Quite the opposite, I have said before that the reason I play the medic is because I have no skills and need to be able to shove a flak cannon into the chest of the monsters to kill them.

But what I lack in aiming ability, I make up for in strategy. I know where to be on a map. I know when to berserk. There are many more things to consider over and above just spawning monsters. You have to keep them healed, be ready to respawn when one dies, and you have to move about in such a way so as to keep them interested in killing rather than simply following you. You have to keep the killing constant to achieve the multiple holy crap kills - which is really where the points rack up.

Prove me wrong. I invite any one of you to with a MM to sit in a base and let your monsters do all the killing and score 5k per map. You will find that to do it, there are other skills to master besides being able to aim a shock rifle from half a mile away.

As a vanilla MM, and before the advent of the subclasses, I used to be able to regularly score 4-5k xp per map. At least half of that was in healing xp. (Again, you have to know when to heal and when to kill in order to maximize xp from healing.) Once the subclasses were in full swing, I noticed that as a vanilla MM I could no longer keep a holy crap kill string going. In fact, it became a rarity that I would get even one HC on a map. My points per map dropped while it seemed that even low-level characters were able to score more than me. The standard monsters are simply not potent or durable enough to get 4-5k xp anymore. In order to compete at a level I am used to, I switched to extreme monsters. The way I figure it, I was scoring at this rate before subclasses and a few hundred levels lower. (Note this topic: http://www.disastrousconsequences.com/dcforum/posts/list/3760.page where I mention in March of 2008 that I was able to score 3kxp per map on healing alone.) So my current scoring rate is just about where it ought to be seeing as I've now maxed out my attributes and have had a couple more years practice at aiming.

cribbage is right, you need skill to make the monsters fight for you, healing them, creating more when they die, u have to be constantly behind them in support mode. And finding the sweet spots where monsters are the must. this is about technique, same is with sent master.
And using berserker in the right times in the right places give you a nice score even wit a sent master, there is a variation of strategies that dont mean certain classes are OverPowered.

The thing is in my previous screenshots the sent masters have a score variation, If the sentinels were overpowered, all of them in the same map would get at least 2500 exp in each game but that is not happening.

What it makes this server unique is that certain classes require different strategies to survive, we dont have to be all running all around seeking for monsters, we have pets, turrets, vehicles and sentinels we depend on.

If those classes dissapear the server will become just like another RPG invasion server.

Skill will always get more from any subclass. That is not in debate.

There are two main considerations for me.

All the subclasses should be about the same power. That means with the maxed class I should score about the same xp for a WM, AM, hybrid, Specialist or Extreme. Some will be easier to survive, some will have more killing power, some will require roaming round the map, others may be more support rather than killing - there should be variety but the same xp on average. Now a skillful player will score more than a not-so-skilled player, which makes it difficult to directly compare different players scores. But if every MM finds he can score more xp as say Extreme Monsters than any other subclass available, then it is probably too powerful. Likewise if all the MMs find that they cannot score at all well as an AM/MM hybrid, then it is too weak.

I got used to seeing engineers hiding in a base spending all map linked to a sentinel outside the base - so the sentinel did the killing and the engineer just sat there all map. And I didn't want to encourage this. Everyone should have to work for their xp. So I am less positive towards the subclasses where you can initiate something and it will earn you lots of xp without you doing much. So I nerfed the rod, nerfed the sentinels slightly, nerfed AMs getting huge xp from the spheres, nerfed linking turrets etc. I haven't yet nerfed the pets, except to limit red skaarj to one, but I may need to.

Obviously each map provides different opportunities to each different subclass, and the blend of other subclasses on also affects scores. Balancing is not easy, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. And that means some of our favourite subclasses may get weaker.

But at heart, don't all of us want a level playing field?

Ok, so if the only way to compare subclasses is for an individual, then lets try that way.

So assume I have a player who plays 3 subclasses A, B and C, and his average xp per minute for each subclass is 8, 10 and 13.
Then from his perspective, B is 1.25 times as good as A, and C is 1.3 times as good as B.

Now if I do those checks across all players who have played multiple subclasses, I will get a set of ratios comparing the subclasses.

If I then set the WeaponMaster SubClass to have a value of 1.00, then I can follow these chains to work out a relative value for each SubClass. So I tried it.

Unfortunately at the moment, there is not enough data to get accurate results.

One problem is that the link points between the class options are the hybrids, which have probably the least reliable of the scores. So the relative comparison between classes may have significant error in it.

Obviously if one subclass is only played by skillful players, or poor players, then the SubClass will get a bias accordingly, which is inappropriate

There are anomalies in the list due to having too restricted a data set. These should resolve over time. For example, the Engineer class is at the top because it has only been played by one player who has also played other subclasses, and the other subclass did not do well. And the players who can get the SubClasses are not playing the base classes much - so lots of room for error. So forget about the Eng-MM-AM-WM comparison for the moment

So I think I will try again in another few weeks, once we have more data.