Engineers and Sentinel placing

Most Engineers plant a floor sentinel in a busy part of the map, then go off killing elsewhere. This way they mop up two sets of kills, and get more points.

I understand this as a tactical ploy. However, there is something about it that just doesn't sit right with me. It sort of has the taste of an exploit - like firing a redeemer and switching to a healing weapon used to. Works nicely, but....

The original idea was that sentinels were there to support engineers and protect them (and others). If engineers are strong enough to go off and leave their sentinels, then they don't really need them do they?

Now, am I alone in this thought? (In which case I'll shut up. ) Or does the general feeling match my own?

If so, we could modify lightning and normal sentinels in one of the following ways:

Only allow sentinels to target monsters that are also visible to the player

If the player is not within 6 metres (20 foot) of the sentinel, the sentinel does not fire, or does so with reduced damage or frequency

Assume sentinels need power to fire. Engineer charges with the link gun, and as the sentinel fires it uses its charge. So after say 50 shots it stops firing until recharged. (Not sure about this as it might encourage engineers to hide just recharging their sentinels)

The general idea being to keep the engineer in the vicinity of the sentinel.

leaving 1 sentinel unattended isn't bad but we're getting some higher lvl engineers now and usually a couple on at a time so its more an issue for me that they seem to be everywhere on smaller/midsized maps .
Especially in the 'kill zones'/high traffic areas making it harder for those of us that have to hunt for and aim at our prey to get kills.

not sure if its just me but monsters don't seem to target them very well so they do last for quite a while without needind healing

that being said have seen some great teamwork lately between eng,LW,Medics

Hey Pain AM's dont neeed To aim...theyve got rod..I mean providing they have to get adren..but if they maxed out a lucky and +1ed it alot they would still have plenty of adren and DDs (dotn get offended Im just joking around ..I know, I know, AMs cant just run around with rod alone....but still)

I agree with Pain...one or 3 sents np.....but ..i mean its alot of the lil guys that is the problem..o.0

I agree some players may be able to run off and shot some stuff but me being ' lower' lvl than players like Wonko, Roadwork, Zneer I find myself at the point where I know I can survive the first maybe 9 waves..then the skaarj wave and beyond gets hard as what...(I hide out with my sent the entire of wave 10...healing it...healing myself and others...avoiding that one deadly lava blob...which will come and seek me out..o_o ..)

Szlat wrote:

Assume sentinels need power to fire. Engineer charges with the link gun, and as the sentinel fires it uses its charge. So after say 50 shots it stops firing until recharged. (Not sure about this as it might encourage engineers to hide just recharging their sentinels)

I think this will defiantly encourage camping....so....I dont think this idea is that good :/...

Szlat wrote:

Only allow sentinels to target monsters that are also visible to the player

If the player is not within 6 metres (20 foot) of the sentinel, the sentinel does not fire, or does so with reduced damage or frequency

Visible as in general vicinity/on the radar? Or Visible as in:
Billy has FOV 80, Bob has FOV120, so thus: Bob gets more kill cus he 'sees' more

Reduce frequency is good idea..but gotta remember the only reason sents stay alive so long is due tot he fact they...

first to attack the monsters, unawarely

take them down fast so by the time the monsters can retaliate they are almost dead anyways

Reduce freq and monsters can attack very fast(relatively)..so its who gets in the shot first mentality...then again...It would encourage ppl to be around them more for sure

What I think Is another good idea is reduce the accuracy (I dont know how easy this is) but that way lets say the enemy wanders in the room youve gotta player and a sent..the player starts shooting at it....and the sent automatically starts..but ....it misses more with no owner around sorta like ' the boss is out lets goof off' ..You cant get kills now if you dont hit the monsters now can you

, and the monsters wont attack them as much so they dont lose health as quickly
(but still theres faster health lost than now cus they would still draw some attention and thereafter will get damaged seeing they dont take down the baddy as fast)

Heh wow this post is getting absurdly long lol...where was i going with this?...
Oh yeah...

Thoughts:
Reducing the power I think is bad idea..and recharging speed...well....its good in theory but then camping slowly evolves...reduce in speed ..is a good idea providing its not too much and the lil tidbit of mine with reducing accuracy..well duh i like it I suggested it..

.....

Also Im trying to think how to not effect those lower players cus the high lvl can go out ALOT in the the fight ..but the low lvl have to run back and hide...alot....alot...ALOT....cus well those lava skaarj kill pretty darn well..>_>...

ALSO Are these only applying to the owner of the said sent ..or any engi for any sent?.....(not likely ..but eh..)

There's my spin on things...srry long post..:/.....heh..oops..

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

leaving 1 sentinel unattended isn't bad but we're getting some higher lvl engineers now and usually a couple on at a time so its more an issue for me that they seem to be everywhere on smaller/midsized maps .
Especially in the 'kill zones'/high traffic areas making it harder for those of us that have to hunt for and aim at our prey to get kills.

not sure if its just me but monsters don't seem to target them very well so they do last for quite a while without needind healing

It's the ability to kill monsters in more than one place at once that is a bit frustrating, especially on smaller maps where open spaces are sparse. Spreading out your sentinels, I'll admit, is an intelligent idea, but it also means a whole lot fewer things for everyone else to shoot at. Like Roadkill said, even medics don't really have this ability with summoned monsters because the monsters tend to stick around and not fight on their own.

One idea that came to me, what about allowing the sentinels to gradually lose health based on how far away the engineer is? Maybe an exponential function, so the amount of health lost will be much greater at the other end of the map than say 15 meters away.

Some monsters do get left behind and can fight their way out...
Besides IMO a portable fire house is better than stationary one ..btu they are no moving sents in the current engi build ...besides...the moving gunns have advanced damge reduction to fall back on..the sent dont

Hmm...
Nice Idea (the anit-regen)....or remove bonuses as you move further away.....is another one..
Ie If I run to faaaar side of the map the sents lose all the damage bonus and reduction....but if Im lets say 20 meters outside the sent ' bubble' it goes down by 5%?...(2% 10 % i dont know...its just loose idea )
Yet again Got no idea how practical that idea is...

So yeah lose ur bonuses ...accuracy...freq....and anti-regen are interesting idea..

.....

ECHO wrote:

One idea that came to me, what about allowing the sentinels to gradually lose health based on how far away the engineer is? Maybe an exponential function, so the amount of health lost will be much greater at the other end of the map than say 15 meters away.

Could do. Only problem then would be if the engineer ghosts. He could end up quite a distance away - especially on maps like four seasons and phase shift.

It would be one thing to just stop the sentinel shooting, another to wipe it out before the engineer could get back to it.

Szlat wrote:

Could do. Only problem then would be if the engineer ghosts. He could end up quite a distance away - especially on maps like four seasons and phase shift.

It would be one thing to just stop the sentinel shooting, another to wipe it out before the engineer could get back to it.

Right, I thought about that and it would be similar to a medic who ghosts. They become separated from their summons, which become at risk for being slaughtered on the trip back to their summoner. It's an incentive to get back ASAP, but the sentinel shutdown idea sounds good too.

I was thinking you could make it so sentinels cant kill they can reduce a monsters health to 1 but then they cant do more damage. This way the Engineer doesnt have to baby-sit the sentinals but still has to watch them to make sure 1 health monsters dont fry them

I do not particularly see where there is a problem with the engineer and his sent being in different locations. In fact this was requested numerous times by higher level players that felt that 5 or 6 engineers in the same area guarding different doors etc. was camping.

I find to be competitive I frequently need to move around the map to get pick-ups, especially when there are no medics on.

This tactic is very similar to what is used by other players when they drop a couple of mines and then move off to another area, or kill themselves when they have ghost and ultima to rack up the extra super weapon kills.

If you want to reduce the effectiveness of the engineer, I will tell you what will work, first get rid of berserk, I make better than a quarter of my points on 2 waves, guess which ones...Second, reduce the damage on the link gun, it is way powerful once you get your accuracy up to the point where you can hit things at a decent distance. Third, increase the cost of shield regeneration, once you get to about level 6 on this you can survive pretty well on a lot of waves without the support of a medic or your sent.

That said, I would say that I am not the only one using a lot of berserk. I have seen a few people be able to keep it running continuously every wave after wave 6, because now you have the ability to toss your adren, and stop the combo between waves and pick your adren back up when the combo is over, if there is any exploit going on here, that is it.

I can see the issue behind the sents...but i can see its not the only cause of having high scores...the point was that sents do the equivalent of camping with autoaim Its stops other players from getting the kills...obviously the same applies to a engi berzerking with a link..

However...thats human..the human takes your kill rather than a 'bot' and the human may miss more than the said bot..not to mention that ALL players have some chance of doing the same berzerk with adren tossing...Medics/WM more so cus they have the drip and health regen on their side....(cant wait till my nx lvl..adren drip 2..

..)

The problem is that the engi class lends it self to covering multiple planes of traffic at the same time..while the WM or AM covers one spot better than the engi (hey even high lvl medic can)..
However, the engi has more ground covered (more traffic) rather than effective..especially with 2 sents out

So as I see it Szlats prob was that it was covering too much ground....unlike the medic who just has aided help in covering one ground(which i disagree..pets cover ground decently as well )

As for the large maps and the like..
Reduced skills may also be incentive..also...in general the later waves if i ghost Im still trying to get back to that same spot (thsi is medic ) where the other players are..for a) cover b) dang those monsters will kill me if i dont..o_o....

so yeah....

5p33d0fD4rk wrote:

I was thinking you could make it so sentinels cant kill they can reduce a monsters health to 1 but then they cant do more damage. This way the Engineer doesnt have to baby-sit the sentinals but still has to watch them to make sure 1 health monsters dont fry them

I quite like this idea. The engineer would still get the xp from the damage, but would need to be there to pick up the kills. However, there are three things that don't go so well

Someone with awareness could just camp near the sentinel, picking off the monsters after the sentinel has nearly killed them

If the sentinel cannot fire at the monster, but the monster still targets the sentinel, the sentinel will get wiped out - especially if the engineer is ghosting, or away getting healed.

Sentinels are very useful at taking out vampire gnats. To reduce them to one health but let them live is not necessarily a good idea

Grizzled_Imposter wrote:

If you want to reduce the effectiveness of the engineer, I will tell you what will work, first get rid of berserk, I make better than a quarter of my points on 2 waves, guess which ones...Second, reduce the damage on the link gun, it is way powerful once you get your accuracy up to the point where you can hit things at a decent distance.

I do not want necessarily to reduce the effectiveness of the engineer. But I don't want engineers to totally dominate the low level waves.

Berserk is used by everyone on titan waves (except perhaps AMs who use triples). It is a separate question if berserk is overpowered, but since everyone can do it, it is relatively balanced.

Likewise, anyone can use a link gun, so that too is balanced. Medics can get themselves an infinite one that does more damage than the engineer one, and a WM or AM with resupply can effectively have a lot more powerful infinite link - even a piercing one.

(any comments on these in a separate thread please - lets stick to engineers and sentinels in this one

)

Grizzled_Imposter wrote:

That said, I would say that I am not the only one using a lot of berserk. I have seen a few people be able to keep it running continuously every wave after wave 6, because now you have the ability to toss your adren, and stop the combo between waves and pick your adren back up when the combo is over, if there is any exploit going on here, that is it.

I agree, to me that seems like an exploit as well. The idea of letting people drop adrenaline was so they could throw it to someone else for the good of all - for a medic or shield blast, or a globe, or even just to give an AM enough adrenaline to max that +1 piercing so it could be shared.

However, there is part of me that thinks it should be possible to switch off combos. So until a decision is made as to the validity of that, I will refrain from nerfing the drop adrenaline. (Any comments in a separate thread please!)

Grizzled_Imposter wrote:

I do not particularly see where there is a problem with the engineer and his sent being in different locations.

Thanks for the feedback. I posted this thread to get feedback from others on if they agreed with me or not. On the whole, I tend to fit in with the majority call (unless Druid says otherwise). Any chance others can give me a straight problem/no problem please?

Szlat wrote:

ECHO wrote:

One idea that came to me, what about allowing the sentinels to gradually lose health based on how far away the engineer is? Maybe an exponential function, so the amount of health lost will be much greater at the other end of the map than say 15 meters away.
Could do. Only problem then would be if the engineer ghosts. He could end up quite a distance away - especially on maps like four seasons and phase shift.

It would be one thing to just stop the sentinel shooting, another to wipe it out before the engineer could get back to it.

Too bad we cannot have the engineers ghost back to their sentinels!!!!!