Triple Damage too good?

We now have a number of other artifacts that players can use instead of just the triple damage. However, the big test is always "will this artifact work better than one of my weapons with a triple?". And usually the answer is still No. To make them even close to the power of the triple produces artifacts way out of balance. Why? Because the triple itself is not balanced.

For example, take the beam. Discussions are going on about it being too powerful, yet it is still much weaker than a weapon plus triple.

There are some weapons, like rage and vorpal, which prohibit the use of the triple. This is a sign the triple is too good.

I know we have had these discussions before. And people do not want it nerfed precisely because it is "too good". But the game has evolved, and more options exist for players now.

LWs do not want the adrenaline usage going up, otherwise they cannot use it.

My suggestion is change it to a double damage, and only use 8 adrenaline a second instead of 10. And allow it to be used with vorpals/rage weapons.

Then other artifacts, like the beam, can be balanced a bit lower also.

The damage+5 was nerfed to +4 max because it was too powerful with the triple. This could be knocked back up to +5 again. And so on, with other weapons etc.

We may end up with a better game.

As an artifact player, I rely on the triple/lightning rod combo in tuff spots and tight waves. Even with max adren it doesn’t last to long and it gives me the feel of having a super weapon every now and again.

I think this combo might have been too powerful in the past but not now.

Before the monster change I would give away my triple but now it more essential to my game play

As a separate topic, I am not at all sure that the triple should stack with the rod or beam. I think it is a bug. That's one for Dru to rule on.

But I agree - there is no doubt the triple makes life significantly easier.

But if you need the triple, what about the people who do not have one? The medics and LWs for example, or the low level players. The triple mostly helps those
a) who have it (LAs)
b) have more adrenaline (high level classes)
c) have adrenal surge, to provide the adrenaline (LAs)
So the triple mostly helps high level LAs.

So if a high level LA needs the triple to survive, how do the low levels stand a chance? The balance is wrong.

As you read below, it may sound like I'm completely against the nerfing of a triple, but It's more like keeping a balance between the artifacts that don't take any skill and weapon usage that does. The balance between those two things. I'm all for dropping the triple down to a double, as long as the "no skill" artifacts are still well below it.(no skill, but you still have to know when to use it/and be there). Dropping it to the double would also level the playing field a little against those without it, which is good.

(From more of my LW character point of view)
Well, the bolt, rod, and beam don't take a whole lot aim to damage/kill the monsters. Sure you have to point the beam, but you're assured to hit them when you use it. When you're using a weapon, you're not guaranteed that you're going to hit anything. You may throw a stream of link at a titan but, how much of it actually hits(at a distance that LA characters would normally use these artifacts). Maybe half the shots will hit. Monsters move around a lot more than they use to, they're harder to hit. It's also made combo-ing tougher to pull off. The monsters are consistently blowing the avril up in my face(especially the warlords), they actually dodge the flak now too. So, that leaves my LG as my only reliable part of my combo, which is always that reliable

. Now, if I get all these to land, the damage is enourmous, especially if I have good weapons and a triple. It doesn't happen very often though. If there are plenty of people on, It's not too difficult to get at least a few decent weapons and a good one, pretty difficult to find a triple, and it's really hard to do any combo-ing(medics blowing up your avril/people running in front of you...). With the the lightning artifacts, crowed areas isn't much of a problem. When there are less people on, it's easier to find triple, guns usually aren't great, but much easier to do combos. (don't really know where I'm going with that anymore, but LW flourish more with less people on)

So, balance wise, a person who uses the rod/beam/bolt a lot shouldn't score as much a person who doesn't(LA or LW). I'm not saying an LA shouldn't score top board all the time, just not those who basically just use rod,bolt,beam. Same with the triple though. Maybe it shouldn't be so power full that it rockets you to the top of the boards when you get it. So, I'm for Dropping it to the double, as long as it's balance with the Lighting artifacts.

lol, i think i could have condensed that a bit more. oh well

Fro13 wrote:

......... So, I'm for Dropping it to the double, as long as it's balance with the Lighting artifacts.

Agreed.
I started this thread after a comment by BotFodder in another thread about how the Beam (and maybe the Bolt) may be seriously over-powered. Yet I knew they were less powerful than the triple.

The balance, as I see it, is LA's have powerful tools to take down monsters because their lifespan is limited compared to regen/medic weapon or regen/vamp. An LA has to take out a monster when they can because they do not have the ability to drag out a battle and recoup lost health (at least not very easily). Medics and LW's don't really need a triple because they can afford to walk away from a battle with damage.

As an LA I don't use the triple that often because I don't have a decent about of DB or adrenaline surge yet (however I will soon at about level 50). Had I spent my stat points differently to accommodate the triple I would have used it more often. However my view point is relative since I'm not at a high level where I can choose to do as I please with my characters abilities.

So, following on from Fro's thoughts, the idea will be to reduce the triple to a double, and reduce the beam/bolt/rod in step. Then I would prefer to see some weapons improved - like the damage weapons back to a +5 max rather than +4, and probably the damage on other weapons also increased.
This will make life easier for low level players.

I know most of these will seem like LA nerfs, but most of the recent changes have been to give extra artifacts to LAs. LAs now have things like megablast, beam/bolt and in theory the spheres. These give the LAs much more power. Credit to the LWs because they have not complained once during this process. Now it is a question of rebalancing.

edit: It may be worth considering dropping the adrenaline requirements of some of the better artifacts - PlusOne, MegaBlast etc. If they were 50 lower, they would get used a lot more, and would help compensate for the other artifacts being reduced in power. I might even consider improving the damage done by the poison blast.

Ok, I've seen this topic before. Before the difficulty level was increased and before the new monsters were implemented.

Here are my thoughts.

The ultimate goal is to have some balance between the classes while taking into account the level of difficulty of monsters. Balance is a touchy subject. I'm not a fan of the whole, "nerf X to balance it with Y".....then "Y is too strong so nerf it to balance it with X" and so on, ideology.

I've seen it already with the addition of things like "advanced damage bonus" and "advanced damaged reduction" skills. I equate it to increasing the size of government to deal with all of the problems created by government. The acronym "K.I.S.S." comes to mind....Keep It Simple Stupid. So we have new artifacts that "too strong". The solution? Nerf other artifacts to "balance" it. It's a slippery slope.

I relate it to an RPG like Guild Wars. The LW class are the tanks. They are good at taking damage and dealing it out....thus the vamp, regen, and loaded weaps skills. LA's are the sorcerers.....they have to hang back a bit, deal damage through 'magic' (e.g. the triple) and strategy...their health is harder to manage....then you have medics....they are the 'clerics'....they can keep themselves and others alive and can summon monsters, but deal less damage. Add to this the class-specific skills, i.e. the triple, or starting out with a painter, redeemer and avril, etc. As was said in this thread already, LA's are forced to adopt the 'kill or be killed' mentality. It's much harder to manage your health than either of the other two classes, therefore the alternative is to take out monsters before they do you in. The triple is an essential part of that strategy.

A lot of this issue also depends on the map being played. For example, there are quite a few maps that lack certain weapons. So unless you are a LW player, you are out of luck. Not to mention, a good portion of maps don't have a deemer, painter, avril, or mine layer on them. By contrast those maps that do may favor LA or medic players. IMO, having a redeemer right off the bat is a BIG advantage.

In all honesty, I have felt for some time now that the number of different artifacts we have added to gameplay is overkill. This discussion in and of itself highlites the problem.

Bottom line is, if you nerf the triple to a double, then LA players are losing one big incentive for chosing that class. Double Damage powerups are available on a majority of maps out there. What's more is that they require ZERO adrenaline to use. The triple has already been nerf'd in the past to use more adrenaline....which was done to "balance" the fact that LA players acquired adrenaline more quickly. IMO, this would be opening up another can of worms. Where do we stop? Medics can heal too easily? LW's have an unfair arsenal?

Well said Electrician.

The idea of the adren players hanging back and being more sorcerer like is exactly what the lightning provides.

I know I am probably the biggest user of the lighting (in all forms). I started playing as an Adren player, which gives me a diff perspective then most people who started the class as a secondary character.

Playing an adren at low levels, as most would agree, is very very difficult. You know that going in. But the reward is some serious fire power and alot of fun.

Remember tho, I spend generally the first 4-5 rounds trying to stay alive, make weapons and max for other players. It's only then I get the chance to really play. Adren players rarely get first blood, due to many deemers going off at the coundown and only having a shield as a decent weapon for a quick kill. And are almost never the last in the round.

I by no means think I'm half the LW player 320 Fro Mach10 or Mystic are. But I'm a darn good adren player who enjoys the character as is.

Frankly, I dont miss not having a super weapon and wouldnt care if all adren player recieved was the lightning arti's (and weapon maker stuff). They’re just as helpful as the Deemer and Painter but don’t knock player off the map.

But as you said Szlat, It's all up to Dru and Shan, so che sera,sera.

It's a great server with great people and thats why I'm here.

Szlat wrote:

I know most of these will seem like LA nerfs, but most of the recent changes have been to give extra artifacts to LAs. LAs now have things like megablast, beam/bolt and in theory the spheres. These give the LAs much more power. Credit to the LWs because they have not complained once during this process. Now it is a question of rebalancing.

You mention the megablast... it is rare that even when I can use it, that I get that many kills. I have put a blast right on top of a couple of titans which had been getting pounded, and had them survive. As for the rest, I will go back to biting my tongue.

Spacey wrote:

You mention the megablast... it is rare that even when I can use it, that I get that many kills. I have put a blast right on top of a couple of titans which had been getting pounded, and had them survive.

I haven't used the megablast once because I don't have 250 adren points yet. I won't for a long time. If the triple/lightenings are modified and the spheres/blasts are left as the 'balances', that leaves low level LA's such as myself out in the cold. I wouldn't object to the lightenings being modified, they are quite powerful, but modifying the triple would unbalance the class more than it would balance.

Let's take a simple comparison. LA player with 100 adrenaline and a flak.

If he uses the Lightning Beam he will do 100*6=600 damage. Enough to take out a warlord, but not a queen or titan.

If he uses the triple, it lasts for 10 seconds, and his flak goes from say 100 damage per shot to 300 (rounded down because some may miss). With a weapon speed of 50, he could fire 2 times per second, that is 200*20 = 4000 extra damage caused by the triple. And that is a standard non-magical flak. Make it a +4 and the extra damage done by the flak comes to 5600.

This is nearly ten times the lightning beam damage.

Now I understand that you only get the full benefits of the triple if you can keep firing and hitting the enemy, where as the Beam is a one-off. But in both cases the LA has to survive the 10 seconds.

However the general feeling seems to be that the triple is fine but the beam is too powerful. I do not understand.

But, as far as I am concerned, the important balance is what people perceive. And if everyone else feels the triple is ok, so be it. I am not after upsetting anyone, just a balanced game.

I don't dispute your math, and I have nothing beyond anecdotal evidence to offer. And admittedly I'm in the region of 120th level with my AM, and some folks claim I'm a good player. But if I have 250 adren and the beam, I can use it quite effectively if I can pick and choose my targets rapidly, stringing out kills. I've gotten kill streaks on smaller monsters with the Beam that I've *never* gotten with the flak and triple (as the triple is often overkill with those monsters).

I guess my point is that with the beam, if you can get it centered (not often that hard on a lot of monsters even from a distance) and you have 200 or adren to start, you can start instakilling things without a second thought. And if any of those targets are sufficiently damaged, and you have surge, you make an *easy* profit in the adren usage. Triple with the flak? Flight time and spreading effect can minimize the damage you'd do to anything. Lighting Gun? I don't understand it much but I can be amazingly inaccurate with the LG but hyper accurate with the beam (and make attempts to fire it more rapidly if I do miss). And that cycle time, even with max weapon speed, just seems to be a lot of wasted adren when using the triple - much like avrils (though the expense can be worth it with a piercing 6 on an open map with titans).

Beams cut through Queen shields. Pound her till she puts the shield up, then toast her. Don't get me wrong - I like that little feature. But no one else has that ability, and particularly with the Null Queens, it's handy. Is it fair? I won't debate that - that's for others to decide.

I just seem to rack up a higher score more quickly with the Beam - the only thing that really gives it a run for it's money is a doubled vorp 11 shock. So in my case, this may all be a function of my level/stats. But I don't get a vorp 11 every map. I do get the Beam.

On the other hand, I also tend to die quicker with the beam right now - I focus less on my defense than I do if I'm working on something else. But I still score better (usually through the size of the monsters and streaks), it seems.

Now, what would I nerf?

I don't know the average number of monster spawned triples on the map. I think (particularly since pinata was fixed) this could use a slight increase, to increase the opportunity for non-AMs to get them.

Adren usage for the Beam and the Bolt could use adjusting. Nothing "drastic" (although I toyed with the suggestion of negating Surge gains from Beam deaths, but that would be too much and I don't know how practical it is - but for certain I would negate any leech adren from damage caused by the Beam/Bolt ... that would be enough I think, if it hasn't already been done). Maybe a point or two more for each ...

Oh, and I'm with Spacey - I'm beginning to think that MegaBlast actually could use a drop to 175. 150 I think would be too cheap, but 200 is so rare even for those of us who can make that much. At most, I can fire it off twice a map (and I better get lucky on the first firing to do something with it). Most other maps I just plain don't have the adren for it, and would rather spend my time searching out a superweapon.

Ok.
I think you are right in that leech is still working on the beam, and perhaps shouldn't be. If you take out a warlord (500/6)=84 adrenaline. You get back 10*2 for surge, plus 5% of damage = 25 for leech. So you get back 45 of the 84, meaning the net cost was 39.

So, perhaps for bolt and beam we need to remove leech. I also think that we ought to make the beam use up 10 adrenaline if it misses, rather than having no cost. And I think stop the triple working with them.

As for the megablast, poisonblast, freezebomb. None of them get used much, which means the kills are not worth the adrenaline. So, either they are not powerful enough or cost too much.

The Freezebomb just freezes and does no damage, so could be reduced from 100 adrenaline to say 60.

The PoisonBlast costs 200. For that, anything in the blast ought to lose between around 50% and 75% of their health, with the firer getting the xp for damage. No leech. No surge because no kills. Perhaps this ought to be reduced to 100 rather than 200, as it gets no kills, and other players are just as likely to pick off the injured monsters. I think the triple does not affect this.

The megablast by default costs 200. It will do between 1200 and 0 damage to anything in the blast. However, the damage does drop off very sharply as you go away from the centre. It will do significantly less damage to a crowd than an ultima or redeemer would. I didn't want it too powerful, but it seems like it is not good value for money at the moment. Perhaps knock down to 175 adrenaline, and increase the damage so it does not fade as fast as you go from the centre? And perhaps increase the 1200 to 1400 to increase the chance of titans near the centre getting killed. Leave this affected by the triple.

So, perhaps for bolt and beam we need to remove leech. I also think that we ought to make the beam use up 10 adrenaline if it misses, rather than having no cost. And I think stop the triple working with them.

I was going to say that, but you beat me to it. If lightning beam costs adren on a miss, that would indeed be a nerf. I can't can't count how many times I've just jammed on the f key (my artifact use bind) until it hits. It would also be the best way to balance it in PvP without destroying its usefulness in Invasion.