Triple Damage too good?

Ratar_Killer wrote:

Well said Electrician.

I second that.

Lets go back a bit further, to the old D & D days (which I have played plenty of) so this is not a new concept.

Same thing here. You pick the class that appeals to you. Each one has its strengths and weaknesses. It all depends on your style of play.

If we keep this up, it will be a never ending balancing act.
It's always harder as a noob, everyone should expect that. But we lived thru it and the noobs to follow us will too.

The balance should come as all of us as a team, not one class compared to another. To use our own special abilities of our class to aid the team in a win.

I suppose the key question boils down to
"Should Adrenaline Masters be mainly using weapons to kill or magic attacks?"
If you say weapons, then the triple has to stay.
If you say magic, then the beam should not be nerfed.
If you say you want both, then you probably also want LAs to have vampire.

EDIT: that perhaps comes over a little harsh.
I think I am just passionate that LAs shouldn't just be fighters with better (max+1) weapons that do more damage (triple), but should be using magic (adrenaline-based) attacks instead. LWs should be doing the weapon damage.

Szlat wrote:

So, perhaps for bolt and beam we need to remove leech. I also think that we ought to make the beam use up 10 adrenaline if it misses, rather than having no cost. And I think stop the triple working with them.
.

Ok, I think were getting somewhere.

Leech should be toned downed greatly but I don’t think eradicated, just greatly reduced if possible, or only rewarded for kill spree would be fine.

I was also thinking that the bolt/beam might have a delay between shots, or maybe a skill you need to buy to increase speed (bolt/beam speed 25,25,50).

At the moment, the beam/bolt will not operate properly with the triple. If you have say 30 adrenaline, this would normally do 180 damage. The triple knocks this up to 540 damage. Having done that amount of damage, it will try to take 540/6=90 adrenaline away. It will take the 30, plus whatever you got in leech and surge.

We can choose to either let the beam be affected by the triple (in which case it should have cost 30 adrenaline for the 540 damage, and the player gets the leech/surge adrenaline back), or we do not let it be affected, in which case the 30 does 180 damage.

I do not think we can have the triple working on the beam and have leech at the same time. The above example shows that 540 damage would be done, for 30 adrenaline, but if you killed a warlord you would get 20 surge and 25 leech back, so you would be in profit by more than the cost of the triple. Not on.

Szlat wrote:

I suppose the key question boils down to
"Should Adrenaline Masters be mainly using weapons to kill or magic attacks?"
If you say weapons, then the triple has to stay.
If you say magic, then the beam should not be nerfed.
If you say you want both, then you probably also want LAs to have vampire.

I'm not sure it is that black and white. I guess I view adrenaline in and of itself as the main weapon in the LA's arsenal. They can acquire it faster and rely more heavily on it than other classes do. Adrenaline = 'magic points'. This game is a FPS first and foremost. The fact that Mysterial and Dru have added some other elements to the game does not change the basic formula. It's how the weapons can be used and which types each class can have at its disposal. The gameplay would change dramatically (for the worse, IMO) for LA players if they are forced to primarily use artifacts like the beam, blast, poison, etc. to kill enemies......it would also create all new balancing issues.

So in answser to your question, LA's should mainly use 'magic' to boost their "inferior" weapons to kill enemies.

.....oh and I don't want vamp.

Szlat wrote:

"Should Adrenaline Masters be mainly using weapons to kill or magic attacks?"
[snip]
If you say you want both, then you probably also want LAs to have vampire.

Can you explain this one? How does having a choice between two things lead to wanting another? (If your comment was to be rescinded by your editation, then feel free to not answer this.) [side comment - maybe this ties in with your old subclasses idea!]

I would like to see the new blasts become more accessible and actually useful. I think I tried the cheapest blast once or twice before deciding it was pretty useless and too expensive. Would be interesting to see them actually being used. One of the main reasons I'd find them hard to use is that you have to scramble through all the artifacts just to find them.

Other than that, not much to say that hasn't already been said by more prestigious LAs than myself. I'll just add that come what come may, I'll probably play the LA class despite any amount of nerfage. I mean, berserk + double =~ triple, right?

TheElectrician wrote:

So in answser to your question, LA's should mainly use 'magic' to boost their "inferior" weapons to kill enemies.

And that is how most of us play it. And like it. And often get the top score (though not often in my case!)

However, part of Dru's initial spec for the LAs was to be more of a support player. LWs as front line, LAs and medics (and Engineers) helping them. So my question is "how can LAs use their adrenaline to help LWs kill monsters?"
And I don't want the answer "by using the triple and killing them first".

kyraeu wrote:

Szlat wrote:

If you say you want both, then you probably also want LAs to have vampire.
Can you explain this one? How does having a choice between two things lead to wanting another?

I was being a bit unkind, and suggesting that some people want the best of everything. Which is why I added the comment about being too harsh.

Sorry folks.

kyraeu wrote:

I would like to see the new blasts become more accessible and actually useful.

I agree.

kyraeu wrote:

One of the main reasons I'd find them hard to use is that you have to scramble through all the artifacts just to find them.

Which is why I did the key binding mod so you could assign a key to each of the artifacts. But Dru hasn't installed that one yet. Not sure why, Perhaps I'll have to re-look at it.

If lowering the triple to double reduces the adren I'm for it. I havn't used the triple much since the increase in adren cost (2-3 times total probably) I actually have a keybind that tosses all the artifacts I rarely use (triple, beam, bolt, boots, magnet) personally to me 3x damage does seem like too much.

[edit]
Would be nice to be able to get toss all the blasts too since I don't even have enough adren to use them

Szlat wrote:

I suppose the key question boils down to
"Should Adrenaline Masters be mainly using weapons to kill or magic attacks?"
If you say weapons, then the triple has to stay.
If you say magic, then the beam should not be nerfed.
If you say you want both, then you probably also want LAs to have vampire.

EDIT: that perhaps comes over a little harsh.
I think I am just passionate that LAs shouldn't just be fighters with better (max+1) weapons that do more damage (triple), but should be using magic (adrenaline-based) attacks instead. LWs should be doing the weapon damage.

I said I was going to go back biting my tongue, but it is rather sore. Instead, I have a question for you about this and some things you said in earlier posts about which I have some concerns... You ask if LA players should use mainly weapons or magic. If not weapons, then how do we get the adren to use the artifacts, if in many cases, the use of the artifact turns off some of the adren skills (some turn off leech, I think all turn off drip). Like you said, I can sit there, fire off a poison sphere all I want, and get no adren for a kill, while some low level LW or medic is getting the adren for the kill. So next thing you know, I have 0 adren to use the artifacts, and I am just so much spatter on the monster's goggles, especially since I have neither regen or vamp. This happens way too often to me even now, and I have bindings which I barely have to move a finger to do things like fire off the triple/bolt combo (if I have the triple up) and turn it off. Especially when I get swarmed by lava skarrj or vamp razor flies. And with the triple/bolt combo, the only way I really get any adren with that is through killilng sprees and using weapons in concert with the combo, especially with other players picking off the bugs weakened by it. Some maps, I don't even get that, given the map layout, etc. prevents me from really doing sprees and such. And as for maxing weapons for folks... I would be even less likely to do so, since that means that I would have less to use my artifacts with, since I cannot really count on getting my adren to run them (unless you want to up drip to give me adren between uses, or have drip running as I use them).

You also mentioned the max+1... do you know what I end up using it on most of the time? Energy and piercing. I cannot remember the last time I made a normal +5 weapon, since at my level, in later waves a normal damage weapon is totally worthless. Rage? Forget it! I am not interested in committing suicide... I die too easily as it is. And so, I cap off energy, piercing, or vorps, if I am lucky enough to get any of the three during the entire map (as said before, too few people pass them along to us LA players any more). So instead of doing +9% on a energy (less than a normal +2) I am doing +12% (and getting +8% instead of +6% on my adren)... BFHD. Piercing... I go from +30% (a normal +3) to +35%... again... big deal. Yea, I can take a vorpal from +100% to +110%, then double the magic to make it go from +200% to +220%, but then how often, on average, do we get a vorpal? And how often do we truely get a vorpal every 5.88 hits on that vorp +22? Yea, sometimes it is like POP-POP-POP, but more often it is like BANG-BANG-BANG with the occasional POP. (would love to see a counter for vorpal weapons which showed up under F3 which said X hits and V vorpals... right along with the number of times I shoot a nali and get a normal hit vs. a headshot... not gonna hold my breath for either... too many other things needing worked on).

Now, I will throw out something really radical, which folks will probably think "No way, LAs are too powerful as it is"... you want LAs doing more adren based stuff? Give LAs a weapon which can be made just like the medics make theirs, which does base damage but gives us adren like leech, which is not reduced by what artifacts we are using. And.... very important, is not totally worthless when the bugs are at such a level that they are doing an obscene DB and DR. That is the problem with the normal damage weapons, and at times even with ones like the vorp... I have been on at times where I have had a vorp 22 shock which was too pooped to pop, hit stone titans more than a dozen times, and my awareness has not even changed to show I was doing any damage to it. With all my stats maxed, that is what... 12*45*2.2*1.8 or right around 2100hp by the time you take into account the doubler and my DB, but before you figure in the monsters DR. So, what I am saying is that if you want LAs doing more adren based stuff, give them what is effectively a piercing weapon with no increased damage like a piercing +6/+7, but with an increased energy aspect, and perhaps effectively infinite as well.

Now, to some other specific things you asked earlier:

My suggestion is change it to a double damage, and only use 8 adrenaline a second instead of 10. And allow it to be used with vorpals/rage weapons.

I cannot believe I am going to say this, but it shows how fundmentally flawed this whole bovine by-product is (other LAs, feel free to slap me next time you see me in the game). Ignoring the unchanged DB/DR, while with a +4 damage, you are now doing D*(1+0.4)*2 or 2.8x base damage with the nerfed-triple-now-double, instead of D*(1+ (2*0.4)) or 1.8x damage with the doubler, with ones like vorps/rage, you are talking a potential of D*(1+1)*2, or 4, instead of D*(1+2*1) or 3 [for the doubler]. With the triple, this would have been D*(1+0.4)*3 or 4.2x, and the still no-triple 3 for the vorp/rage, and so the advantage actually is still, as you have pointed out, to those folks with more adren, and bringing it in faster. So instead of making it more ballanced, you are once again giving more to the LA players, who IMO you say are overly advantaged to begin with. This does not stop until you do something like take away the triple or make it worthless for everyone. Which in turn hurts the lower level LA without the DB, who does not have that much adren in the first place, which makes the lower level LA even more difficult. And gee... if you make it so that if you are a higher level, it costs more, then you take away the incentive for anyone playing LA, and then you stop getting your weapons maxed.

So if a high level LA needs the triple to survive, how do the low levels stand a chance? The balance is wrong.

And to answer your question about low level LAs Szlat... they generally do not survive, but when they do, it is because the higher level LAs and other players watch out for them more, giving them things like vamp weapons, and the fact that because they are a lower level, they keep down the DB/DR of the monsters. So if we are looking at 10 players, with a level 20 LA and a bunch of folks in 100-160 range, you take away that level 20 LA, and replace it with a level 100+ LA, the bugs go from a DB/DR of like 70/70 to one of like 350/350. (0.5 * levels * 7 for each of DB and DR) And how much damage am **I** doing with that +5 flak, even with my triple going, with all my stats maxed?? Too little. And with things like the triple/bolt eating my adren based on damage done... I soon become that spat on the monster's goggles.

Oh... and I cannot count the number of times I have died because a medic was not on, we could not meet up, or I just did not get healed for some other reason, like waiting my turn.

Some folks may remember I saw all this ballance stuff back when we first started out, both WRT high levels vs. low levels, and later between classes. And it is a very slipery problem... and I agree with things like TheElectrician and Ratar and FM said. It is one reason why RPG games like D&D, Darkus Thel and others are seldom run with parties with a huge range of levels. Most times, games are run with parties of say "levels 5-9". And of course, you are talking about games where levels are only 0-20 or 0-30 instead of 0-434+. Of course, the real deal is about the group as a whole... teamwork... which means that the LAs survive to be able to max weapons for the other players, the LW players hand off energy/piercings to the LA players (including the higher level LAs), and the medics heal. And a LA is not always going to have the adren to run their artifacts to kill, or to max weapons. Sometimes, they just have squat for weapons, which do little damage, and hence give them little adren, and are too busy dropping 100 adren at a shot trying to get something worthwhile.

As for the bolt/beam... I honestly do not use them often... one of those too busy trying to get something I can do damage with once I have run out of adren, which I do too often when I use the triple and the rod/bolt/beam, or the spheres trying just to stay alive. And with stats maxed...

Szlat wrote:

So my question is "how can LAs use their adrenaline to help LWs kill monsters?"
And I don't want the answer "by using the triple and killing them first".

When the Globes are fixed, they'll go a long way.

I had an idea some time ago but no one seemed to be too keen on it ... I thought that the link could be used to link to players who had weapons other than links to energize the shots - IOW, if someone was wielding a flak, someone could shoot a link at them and make the flak shots more powerful.

Knowing what I know now, I don't think it's impossible but I do think it would take a lot of code I wouldn't want to bother mucking with.

If we start modifying the class such that they are getting less xp (I know that sounds like "nerfing" but hear me out) then we need to come up with a "secure" way for AMs to get XP for maxing and passing out weapons.

BotFodder wrote:

I had an idea some time ago but no one seemed to be too keen on it ... I thought that the link could be used to link to players who had weapons other than links to energize the shots - IOW, if someone was wielding a flak, someone could shoot a link at them and make the flak shots more powerful.

Knowing what I know now, I don't think it's impossible but I do think it would take a lot of code I wouldn't want to bother mucking with.

If we start modifying the class such that they are getting less xp (I know that sounds like "nerfing" but hear me out) then we need to come up with a "secure" way for AMs to get XP for maxing and passing out weapons.

I think that the link idea sounds interesting, but I think I would want to see more about it, such as does it take a purchased skill, does it take adren to use, etc. I would say, based on the case on medics, it should not use adren other than that to make the weapon in question (probably a guarenteed "link of boosting", with link being the only thing I can think of), and XP would then be given to the AM just as I believe it is on link chains... don't know for certain how that works today, given I hardly ever use link.

As for giving AMs XP for maxing, handing out weapons, etc... Gee... sounds very very familiar.

A secure way to have AMs to get XP for maxing is perhaps a derivative of something like the bolt, megablast, etc., where you aim at the player in question, spend a little adren on the AM side and adren on the other player's side, and using a "bolt of maxing" (or what ever we call it), you get the other player holding a maxed weapon.

Another possibility is to perhaps create a deal where we use a little of our adren, and out pops either a single use MWM or a maxing artifact which they then use 100 adren to do their thing. The things I dislike about that method though are the usual artifact complains, like the pickup time if you have 3 artifacts, the fact that people could run by and inadvertantly pick it up, or the problem on low grav maps, where you cannot pick up things at times. As for the XP, perhaps grant it in two steps... so many XP for spawning the artifact, and more when they use it. Keeps the AM from getting no XP when the pickup fails, the player gets it and then does not or cannot use it, etc. And, by giving a small amount of XP when it is spawned, you also encourage the AM to doing random acts of kindness and spawning such items from time to time without being asked.

A great thing about these tricks... it is a great way for the AM to spend a little of their adren and take that draining weapon that some player has and turning it into a energy weapon, and then the AM can benefit from the weapon. Could also help to get rid of misfortune weapons if we still had them. And on top of it, no screwing up of the artifact order (wish I could set a preference order there, or we had ways to select a specific artifact in the same way the weapons can be selected... an advantage the LW players have over LA in picking their tools of the trade)... And none of this deal where I give Sub (or someone else for that matter) my MWM, and it breaks.

BTW... on handing out weapons and getting XP, do something like this. First, all players should get XP for passing out. Only fair, especially for those LW players who pass out weapons to the LAs or medics. The trick is to add an attribute just like the magical attribute to weapons which identifies the player dropping the weapon along with the previous player, and perhaps a flag. You toss a weapon (which sets the last holder to you and the previous last holder gets moved to the time before holder) and it gets picked up, you as the last holder of that instance of the weapon get some small XP. If it gets tossed to you and you are the previous holder, no XP given on either end. And perhaps in fact, you loose the XP you got for tossing it and having it picked up. This last bit solves the back/forth/back/forth exploit (for this, you just go to an A/B/C/A/B/C indian ball toss, and you still end up with the XP), but then it also causes problems with things like we are both away from weapon X, but I toss it to you and you toss it back so you can go grab one of your own. So perhaps you grant the couple of points anyways. And, if you add to this that when you max a weapon, it does something such as tweeks a flag, and perhaps grants the AM extra XP for the maxing when it is tossed back to the original owner. Not 100% secure, but perhaps this is a step in the right direction. Oh, and if I max a weapon, toss it back and pick up another, no previous owner when I pick it up, so no XP granted when I pick it up. But when I toss it and it is picked up, I get some XP since I am obviously in the mode where I am handing out at this point.

Seems to me that the more that ability's are reduced, the more that existing earned experience is worth.

Are LA players topping the high score table every time? Is there a verifiable imbalance in play?

I will do the wrong thing and answer my own question. looking at the high score table the only thing that looks out of place is the level 50 medic in the middle of the pack. I would (if I had not witnessed what had happened to give that score) take this as evidence that medics are vastly overpowered.

lets have a good long test with the wonderful new monsters for a while and it will become obvious if the triple is overpowered. heck, I don't usually use it myself because my hit percentage is not good enough to make it as effective as the rod in damage per adrenaline used.

Keybinding is in - you just have to do it manually (unless you can get ahold of more than just the .u file).

Note that I did run into a problem with it giving the wrong artifacts during a VINV match ...

BotFodder wrote:

Keybinding is in - you just have to do it manually (unless you can get ahold of more than just the .u file).

Note that I did run into a problem with it giving the wrong artifacts during a VINV match ...

awesome... was wondering about that after looking at the source.