Subclass balance in DruidsRPG227

It's early days yet, but I will log the results as previously, just as a reference towards checking balance. It is only a guide though - player opinion counts more since a lot depends on who else was on and the map etc.

Status so far on 20th July with 37438 logs is as follows:

First looking at the stats where the subclass is effectively maxed (but excluding countershove etc), where the player was on for at least 20 mins. Results are averaged over all players, ordered by AverageXPPerMin.

Code:

 SubClass             AverageXPPerMin MedianXPPerMin MAXXPPerMap NumTimesPlayed AverageLevel DistinctPlayers
 -------------------- --------------- -------------- ----------- -------------- ------------ ---------------
 Extreme Medic        92              91             8110        390            847          6
 Skilled Weapons      90              94             6186        26             312          3
 Turret Specialist    84              83             6286        23             377          4
 Berserker            83              82             9559        560            632          8
 AM/MM hybrid         78              81             4731        17             274          6
 Extreme WM           78              73             8850        394            587          8
 Extreme AM           77              73             8257        144            395          5
 Tank                 75              72             6749        375            357          2
 AdrenalineMaster     65              61             5105        132            243          6
 Extreme Monsters     62              54             7454        117            429          5
 Base Specialist      61              61             6538        953            307          10
 Sentinel Specialist  61              62             5280        1001           358          7
 WeaponMaster         58              56             5486        391            330          13
 MonsterMaster        58              64             4350        232            253          3
 WM/Eng hybrid        54              51             5310        171            343          3
 AM/WM hybrid         51              48             5853        241            188          5
 AM/Eng hybrid        49              44             4548        362            360          4
 Vehicle Specialist   44              42             2171        6              396          3
 Engineer             43              42             3643        168            258          3
 WM/MM hybrid         40              47             2262        4              620          2
 MM/Eng hybrid        34              39             1918        25             275          5
 General              28              27             2474        322            193          1

That was just the high levels. Looking at logs of more than 20 mins for all players
Code:

 SubClass             AverageXPPerMin MedianXPPerMin MAXXPPerMap NumTimesPlayed AverageLevel DistinctPlayers
 -------------------- --------------- -------------- ----------- -------------- ------------ ---------------
 Skilled Weapons      90              94             6186        26             312          3
 Extreme Medic        85              83             8110        497            696          10
 Berserker            82              82             9559        572            622          10
 Extreme AM           77              73             8257        144            395          5
 Tank                 77              73             6749        422            337          4
 Extreme WM           73              73             8850        890            349          13
 Extreme Monsters     62              55             7454        136            394          6
 Turret Specialist    61              49             6286        112            235          9
 Vehicle Specialist   61              38             8249        59             214          9
 Sentinel Specialist  58              59             5280        1642           295          17
 Base Specialist      57              56             6538        2108           234          15
 AM/MM hybrid         47              41             4731        55             145          11
 AM/WM hybrid         47              45             5853        413            167          10
 WM/Eng hybrid        45              41             5683        804            163          14
 AM/Eng hybrid        43              41             4548        597            258          11
 WM/MM hybrid         36              37             3594        101            114          7
 WeaponMaster         29              24             5486        2625           98           219
 AdrenalineMaster     29              25             5105        2146           63           127
 MonsterMaster        29              24             4371        2478           83           178
 MM/Eng hybrid        27              27             2539        254            125          17
 Engineer             27              24             4584        4886           70           242
 General              22              22             3871        1758           84           100
 None                 3               2              897         491            12           282

and then just the top 25 xp scores so far, ordered by xp score:
Code:

 LogDate    PlayerName           XPGained    SubClass             Level       AverageXPPerMin
 ---------- -------------------- ----------- -------------------- ----------- ---------------
 2011-12-07 Locrian              9559        Berserker            312         304
 2011-11-29 Elite_Guard(AI)      8850        Extreme WM           405         313
 2011-12-12 Elite_Guard(AI)      8425        Extreme WM           407         276
 2012-04-14 Superlocrian         8257        Extreme AM           300         284
 2011-11-22 smurf                8249        Vehicle Specialist   285         199
 2012-05-13 Elite_Guard(AI)      8115        Extreme WM           412         270
 2012-05-07 cribbage             8110        Extreme Medic        1061        197
 2012-05-01 Superlocrian         7865        Extreme AM           302         281
 2012-05-11 cribbage             7863        Extreme Medic        1063        235
 2012-04-29 Elite_Medic(AI)      7787        Extreme Medic        403         254
 2012-05-23 PKer                 7692        Vehicle Specialist   227         319
 2012-05-30 PKer                 7608        Vehicle Specialist   233         239
 2011-11-16 cribbage             7463        Extreme Medic        942         182
 2011-12-18 (DC)Dr.Wayno         7454        Extreme Monsters     498         233
 2011-12-12 Elite_Guard(AI)      7418        Extreme WM           406         230
 2012-03-09 cribbage             7355        Extreme Medic        1026        202
 2011-10-13 Flak_Monkey          7325        Berserker            640         205
 2012-01-14 cribbage             7233        Extreme Medic        985         210
 2011-12-12 Elite_Medic(AI)      7091        Extreme Monsters     401         264
 2011-10-20 cribbage             6929        Extreme Medic        928         168
 2011-11-10 cribbage             6797        Extreme Medic        937         216
 2012-05-11 Elite_Medic(AI)      6776        Extreme Monsters     404         218
 2011-12-06 Locrian              6749        Tank                 308         261
 2012-07-03 PKer                 6667        Vehicle Specialist   256         239
 2012-02-17 cancer               6538        Base Specialist      278         160

8 different subclasses in the top 25 scores.
Berserker, Extreme WM and Tank for the WM
Extreme Medic and Extreme Monsters for the MM
Vehicle Specialist and Base Specialist for the Engineer.
And the Extreme AM.
No hybrids.

AM/Eng hybrid 73 2843 1 354 1

2011-10-01 [RMD]Rapier-junk 2843 AM/Eng hybrid 354

I guess I'm the only one playing the AM/ENG hybrid

[RMD wrote:

RAPIER]AM/Eng hybrid 73 2843 1 354 1

2011-10-01 [RMD]Rapier-junk 2843 AM/Eng hybrid 354

I guess I'm the only one playing the AM/ENG hybrid

So far, yes. If fact, by then, you were the only high level playing any hybrid.
But there are some, like Skilled Weapons, that haven't been played at all.
Sad as it seems lots of people just stop in one subclass. I suppose if that is the subclass that's suits their temperament, then why not?

The exceptions are
Locrian/SuperLocrian - tries quite a few subclasses
cribbage - who has played Extreme Monsters and Extreme Medic
Dragon7350 with MonsterMaster and Extreme Medic
K&D_Enterprise with Tank and WM/Eng

Not many eh?

Brought across from the 226 balance thread:

[RMD wrote:

RAPIER]I don't know if this is the right place to post it, but here goes. I noticed sence the last rev I no longer have the lighting rod on my AM/ENG hb. was this an intentional change or something over looked.
I didn't use it a loty but I did use it. Whats up.

We used to have two abilities - DruidArtifactLoaded and DruidArtifactLoadedHybrid. The DruidArtifactLoaded was for AMs, whereas everyone else got the Hybrid ability. However, it didn't feel right. The hybrids were getting better artifacts at lower levels than the AMs - and that just isn't fair. As an example, why should hybrid AMs get unbreakable artifacts at level 2, but AMs have to wait until level 3? If anything it ought to be the other way around.
WMs manage with just one LoadedWeapons ability, so why not just one ArtifactLoaded ability? It was a last minute decision to go for it, so perhaps the list isn't quite as it should be.

I can see how a rod is useful, and the same applies for the triple for an Enginer or General class. And I can see how a MagicWeaponMaker isn't as useful when you always have an infinite weapon. The old list was:
226 AMs:
Level 1
Flight
Teleport
Spider
MakeMagicWeapon
Level 2
DoubleModifier
MaxModifier
PlusOneModifier
Invulnerability
TripleDamage
LightningRod
Level 3
LightningBolt
LightningBeam
ChainLightning
MegaBlast
FreezeBomb
PoisonBlast
Repulsion
FireBall
Level 4
SphereInvulnerability
SphereDamage
RemoteDamage
RemoteInvulnerability
RemoteMax

226 AM Hybridss:
Level 1
Invulnerability
TripleDamage
Level 2
MakeMagicWeapon
DoubleModifier
MaxModifier
PlusOneModifier
LightningRod

with the General class limited to level 1, and all others hybrids level 2.

The new 227 list is
Level 1
Flight
Teleport
Spider
MakeMagicWeapon
Invulnerability
Weapon+1
Level 2
TripleDamage
MaxModifier
FireBall
RemoteDamage
RemoteInvulnerability
RemoteMax
Level 3
LightningRod
DoubleModifier
PlusOneModifier
MegaBlast
PoisonBlast
Level 4
LightningBolt
LightningBeam
ChainLightning
Repulsion
SphereInvulnerability
SphereDamage

with the General getting level 1, most hybrids level 2, and the WM/AM hybrid level 3.
So the AM/Eng at level 2 loses the rod and plusone, but gains a weapon+1 and the fireball, and the remotes.

It is a difficult call trying to work out what artifacts should be at what level. Every subclass wants available to them the artifacts they like to use - so triple and rod. But the AM stepping up the levels needs to have some valid upgrade path.

Perhaps level 1 ought to be the artifacts that get spawned by monsters - so you don't have to go looking for them - pretty much like the WM with level 1 doesn't have to pick up weapons. This would be Flight, Teleport, Spider, MakeMagicWeapon, Invulnerability, Weapon+1, Rod

Level 2 would then be additional artifacts useful to AM/MM or AM/Eng. There isn't really anything to help boost the Eng or Medic side apart from what was in level 1. So perhaps some general AM functions - Max, PoisonBlast, Fireball and the remotes.

level 3 would be the ones most beneficial to WMs. Max+1, DoubleModifier

level 4 are the AM specific ones - Bolt, Beam, Chain, Repulsion, MegaBlast, SphereDamage and SphereInvulnerability.

And should we have any artifacts reserved for level 5?

Yes!! ... spread them out, like Ive stated before, theres is no reason why the AM's should max out before the WM while being just as powerful, meaning if they max out earlier, the AM's will be more powerful than the WM at that specific level.

Just keep in mind that any change made to the stat/skill progression will have an impact on both low- and high-level players. And considering that rough 41-75 level grind that AM's face when they lose the assists, I'm betting the low-levels will feel that impact more than the high-levels.

Though reducing the "maxed out" level gap between AM's and WM's would certainly simplify the balancing process.

Edit (10/08/11): On another note, would it be possible to add another column to the top two tables showing the median XP/min values of each class? Obviously we need more data before doing serious analysis, but once we get to that point, it may help with drawing inferences about the distribution of the data. The mean alone may not be reliable in some cases.

Locrian wrote:

Though reducing the "maxed out" level gap between AM's and WM's would certainly simplify the balancing process.

The only way to do this would be to charge more for the AM skills - which will make it more difficult for AMs in the 40-70 range.

Locrian wrote:

On another note, would it be possible to add another column to the top two tables showing the median XP/min values of each class? Obviously we need more data before doing serious analysis, but once we get to that point, it may help with drawing inferences about the distribution of the data. The mean alone may not be reliable in some cases.

Done, but I don't know how much use it will actually be. To be honest, I don't think you can do any deep analysis - it is all too player/map/whoelse dependent. If for one subclass I have 9 low values from one player and 8 high values from another player, there will be a big difference between the median and the average - but it could just as easily have been 8 and 9 the other way.

I've brought this up before, but here goes again...

Rod, Beam and Bolt....for AMs are considered Super weapons? ...so I have been told. I'm sure there are others. Beam and bolt have the potential at a certain level to be....insta-gibbers....and repeaters at that.

In DM/TDM...anyone who is a AM of any sorts gets these...but anyone in WM class, doesn't get their super weapons...who, if they did, can only use once per wave/life. SO, to me that's not exactly fair. Cuz an AM at high level can just blow thru baddies (or players on the opposite team) real easy and at a distance.

I know what people are thinking about my class....but for me to be effective, I have to be close...and in DM, I don't get those "super weapons" of mine...or any other member of the WM class (that I know of). And that extra power of mine comes at a steep price...something others dont think about...unless they are trying to kill me

I'm thinking of other WMs out there more than myself as at my level, there really is nothing to shoot for except a higher score. I play to play...take my mind of worries of life.

And you wonder why I do not like to play DM/TDM

Szlat wrote:

Locrian wrote:

Though reducing the "maxed out" level gap between AM's and WM's would certainly simplify the balancing process.
The only way to do this would be to charge more for the AM skills - which will make it more difficult for AMs in the 40-70 range.

Not really, currently the artifacts are as follows, at least according to the DC wiki:

Max Magic Modifier
Double Magic Modifier
Magic Modifier Plus One
MegaBlast
FreezeBomb
PoisonBlast
Remote Damage
Remote Invulnerability
Remote Max
Repulsion
Sphere of Invulnerability
Sphere of Damage
Lightning Beam
Lightning Bolt
Chain Lightning
FireBall

These artifacts could be arranged into a series of 5 levels or perhaps 6 levels for Extreme AM, to balance it out with the Extreme WM. Instead of charging more, spreading them out would be a better alternative while still charging the same amount of points. All the artifacts would be split into 3 groups: Offensive, Defensive, and Miscellaneous. I think Miscellaneous should be of the first 2 levels, Defensive of the next 2 levels and Offensive of the last 2 levels. or however you see fit. Either way they can be arranged in order to fulfill 6 levels or perhaps 7 levels of loaded artifacts.

Miscellaneous
Level 1
Boots of flight
Teleporter
Magic Weapon Maker
ElectroMagnet

Level 2
Max Magic Modifier
Double Magic Modifier
Magic Modifier Plus One

Deffensive
Level 3
Remote Damage
Remote Invulnerability
Remote Max

Level 4
Repulsion
Sphere of Invulnerability
Sphere of Damage

Offensive
Level 5
MegaBlast (effective on skaarj waves mainly)
FreezeBomb (very effective in DM)
PoisonBlast (effective when you're the last one alive)

Level 6
Lightning Rod? (always effective)
Lightning Bolt (especially effective against red flies and pupae)
Chain Lightning (used against large clusters of weak monsters)

Level 7 (These being the most powerful artifacts)
Lightning Beam
FireBall

These are just ideas but it wouldn't be much of a nerf, in fact its not a nerf at all, they get the same abilities just in a different order and it might take 3 levels longer to acquire but nothing more. Of course this does not take the cost into consideration, which I assume could be made equivalent to what the WM pay for their loaded weapons skill.

Flak Monkey wrote:

Rod, Beam and Bolt....for AMs are considered Super weapons? ...so I have been told. I'm sure there are others. Beam and bolt have the potential at a certain level to be....insta-gibbers....and repeaters at that.

The rod isn't really a superweapon as it randomly gets dropped by monsters. And its usefulness in DM is suspect as it takes seconds to kill someone - much too long.

Beam and Bolt have maximum damage limits set on them. So bolt will do a max of 100 damage per hit, and beam 180 damage. So, no they are not insta-gibbers. So a max of 360 per second for a standard AM (two beam shots).

For a standard WM, a +4 flak will do (117/0.89)*1.5*1.4*1.3 damage a second = 359. (117 damage per shot, 0.89 fire rate, 1.5 weapon speed, 1.4 +4 flak, 1.3 damage bonus)

So yes, you are 1 damage a second behind.
But if you switch to the link gun, with its higher damage per second, then you score better than the AM (30/0.2)*1.5*1.4*1.3 = 410 damage a sec.

And the fact that weapons go through DB/DR helps the WM, since the limits of 80 DB and 50 DR mean weapons in DM will get +15% bonus.

Life gets much more complicated once you move to the subclasses, with their different bonuses.

Szlat you are considering all the flak shells hit the monster, I don't roughly know but a shell contains around 10 or more pellets. And you are assuming all of them hit the target for maximum damage, the same with the link gun, you are also assuming they all hit the target. As for the AM the beam instantly hits the target, it takes no time to travel, and since it takes no amount of time to travel you will miss much less, you just need steady hands.

Flak cannon primary shoots 9 projectiles. The only way to get every single shard to connect is a point-blank shot (which, considering DM takes place on ONS maps, rarely happens.) Link gun primary, even in RPG with increased fire rate, is all but useless at range against player-size targets.

A better comparison would be the lg to the beam (yes, I have used the lg as a berserker and it is very effective.) But the principle difference is that the LG has a timer penalty whether you hit the target or not; you can mash the use button all you want with the beam until your cursor passes over a player, so long as you have the adren (which is scarce in DM games, and is the main limiting factor in using beam/bolt/rod in that context.)

I see where Flak_Monkey's concerns come from (hence why I stopped using my AM in DM games, except that one time Smurf was on because he wasn't fighting fair

) but I also can't remember the last time I saw an AM playing DM, so do we know how big of a problem this is these days?

Personally, since I play with a 200+ ping, I find the flak a lot easier - at least some of it will hit, whereas the beam will normally miss.

Anyway, my personal feeling is that if you want to do DM, it is about player v player, so you should go without the RPG. Exactly what is the satisfaction for a level 300 wiping out a level 10 player? Or is it really about low levels shortcutting the xp grind?

Szlat wrote:

Anyway, my personal feeling is that if you want to do DM, it is about player v player, so you should go without the RPG.

I agree. As such, why not remove all RPG elements in DM/TDM, thus making all players equal.