SubClass Balance Issues in release 225

Elite wrote:

....wouldn't the other extreme classes complain for some unique advantage like the one you are going to give for the extreme medics?

The normal medic is unique in that it can give +150 health. To allow the Extreme Medic to give +200 is just more of the same - an extreme version.

The other extreme classes do not get the general class or hybrids encroaching on their sole function in the same way.

Trooper wrote:

it seems extreme AM mostly uses spheres in a base. thats why they get more xp per map, not because they are killing more but because they are milking a high density area with a sphere during times when its not needed, doing the team little benefit. thats what he was saying about underpowered; underpowered in points and kills, overpowered in xp

Do we need to change the xp given by the spheres? If an Extreme AM uses all his adrenaline on a sphere, then he will be very weak until he builds his adrenaline back up again. But just hiding in a base and sphering where not really helping wasn't what I was after.

However, note that of the approx 10,000 score logs I have the Extreme AM comes in 7th and 8th on the high scores - so I wouldn't say they can't score.

we played some DM today and elite placed a ion turret. to me that just seems way too overpowered and needs some balance issues. to me its the huge splash damage thats the problem. thats why the painter and deemer are given to the WMs on invasion but not on deathmatch. besides if they are high enough they can get that, then they have max regen and max vamp on it anyways so they will be already very hard to kill.

Trooper wrote:

we played some DM today and elite placed a ion turret. to me that just seems way too overpowered and needs some balance issues. to me its the huge splash damage thats the problem. thats why the painter and deemer are given to the WMs on invasion but not on deathmatch. besides if they are high enough they can get that, then they have max regen and max vamp on it anyways so they will be already very hard to kill.

Deathmatch with players at different levels will never be fair. Trying to balance for deathmatch as well as invasion will be exceedingly difficult - unless I just remove all class benefits. So realisitcally, expect problems or play non-rpg deathmatch.

If he plants a turret somewhere, go elsewhere?

well thats the thing.... he can hit the WHOLE map from 1 corner and he doesnt even need to be accurate. besides he also gets the extra vamp and such as well as the link turret. just like the WM gets deemer and painter taken away, I think that should as well. time was taken to nerf the beam for DM for the same reason after all

Trooper wrote:

well thats the thing.... he can hit the WHOLE map from 1 corner and he doesnt even need to be accurate. besides he also gets the extra vamp and such as well as the link turret. just like the WM gets deemer and painter taken away, I think that should as well. time was taken to nerf the beam for DM for the same reason after all

Actually, the beam is the same in DM and invasion. When it could instagib, then it was limited for DM, but now the beam is always limited in damage. The ion turret/tank are not quite the same, as they give a seconds warning of where they are going to hit, allowing people time to trans out.

So, let me ask a different question. If Elite was on, why did you vote Deathmatch? And do you honestly think it would have made any difference whichever class he played?

Szlat wrote:

Trooper wrote:

well thats the thing.... he can hit the WHOLE map from 1 corner and he doesnt even need to be accurate. besides he also gets the extra vamp and such as well as the link turret. just like the WM gets deemer and painter taken away, I think that should as well. time was taken to nerf the beam for DM for the same reason after all
Actually, the beam is the same in DM and invasion. When it could instagib, then it was limited for DM, but now the beam is always limited in damage. The ion turret/tank are not quite the same, as they give a seconds warning of where they are going to hit, allowing people time to trans out.

So, let me ask a different question. If Elite was on, why did you vote Deathmatch? And do you honestly think it would have made any difference whichever class he played?

Just played megawoot and Romramoonstation with the Ion turret on and the knockback from it seems to be doing an awefull lot of teamkilling. Is there any way to stop the knockback affecting players?

The ion's primary attack does not damage teamates but instead acts like a repulsion that pushes everyone back (including monsters and teamates)... on most maps it is acceptable but on fall off maps like Roma and Megawoot, the chances of killing teamates are very great. Can it act like the repulsion the AMs have? which has no effect on teamates.

Sorry guys, it's let's check where we are time.

If the subclasses are all balanced, then we should get them being played in roughly equal amounts.
Looking at the logs of what subclasses have been played by players over level 200, we get
Code:

 SubClass             AverageXPPerMin MaxXPPerMap NumTimesPlayed AverageLevel DistinctPlayers
 -------------------- --------------- ----------- -------------- ------------ ---------------
 Berserker            80              9405        392            611          6
 Sentinel Specialist  63              8246        283            243          5
 AdrenalineMaster     49              4002        166            241          7
 MonsterMaster        70              4489        115            610          4
 Extreme Medic        71              4874        102            397          5
 Extreme AM           103             10881       97             299          4
 Extreme WM           95              7208        85             430          3
 Extreme Monsters     82              7932        84             326          4
 WeaponMaster         49              3549        70             442          9
 Engineer             45              4610        48             389          2
 Turret Specialist    50              5916        34             326          4
 Extreme Engineer     71              3530        7              352          2
 AM/WM hybrid         78              3663        6              432          1
 Skilled Weapons      78              4175        5              440          2
 Vehicle Specialist   55              2282        5              379          1
 WM/Eng hybrid        34              2829        3              382          2
 WM/MM hybrid         51              210         1              428          1
 AM/MM hybrid         23              295         1              326          1

So, we can see that the Berserker and Sentinel Specialist are played way more than the others.

Breaking it down by class, for the WM
WM 70, Berserker 392, Extreme WM 85, Skilled Weapons 5, Tank 0, Hybrids 10
To me, this looks like the Wm and Extreme WM are balanced, Berserker is too popular, and skilled weapons and tank are not liked.

For the AM,
AM 166, Extreme AM 97, hybrids 7
Well, the base class is getting more plays than the extreme. So, basically ok, but perhaps a bit more for the Extreme AM?

For the M/MM,
MM 115, Extreme Medic 102, Extreme Monsters 84, hybrids 2
This is relatively balanced between the main 3. The hybrids still not getting used.

For the Eng,
Eng 48, Sent Spec 283, Turret Spec 34, Extreme Eng 7, Vehicle Spec 3, hybrids 3
Sentinel Specialist is way ahead. If this was being used as a team support subclass (e.g. medic) then I would be happier.
However, I am concerned about this character encouraging players to spawn sentinels and stop in a safe place linking the sentinels.

So, I know how much fun it is playing a subclass that owns, or is relatively safe. However my task is to try and balance the subclasses.

So, I am after suggestions.
Do I leave Berserker and Sentinel Specialist unchanged, or do I lower their desirability a bit?
If unchanged, do I need to bring other subclasses up to the same level of desirability? (In which case, the monsters would need to be slightly more powerful, so in effect it is a nerf to them anyway.)

The less desirable subclasses Tank, Skilled Weapons, Hybrids - I suppose I need to make them more desirable?

The Extreme AM isn't excessively popular, but has a very high xp return. So I assume they can get huge xp from spheres, but players don't really enjoy that. How about we reduce the xp from spheres but give them more offensive power?

Suggestions?

personally I think berserker is a bit overpowered. yes they take more damage but I see players taking down titans in 3 hits with no triple and no overly special weapons. in smaller maps with desert on, titan wave is a breeze because the titans die before they even get to throw anything and players run a berserk adren combo and run out of adren in no time because they get no kills. having a default 2X damage minimum seems overpowered even if they do take twice normal damage. do I have a suggestion on how to make it more balanced? no I dont but I do think that it does need tweeked

XAM are't very popular simply because there are not many AMs over lvl 200

, but another level or two of resupply would be nice ; ammo = shooting = adren
the hybrids are too limited for most of us "Really" high level players ,but I think will be very popular to the "mid" level players
other than myself I haven't seen anyone else trying the Hybrids the WM/AM kicks butt
Skilled WM are OK I just prefer using a variation of weapons (makes its more interesting)
Tank needs a "Monster Magnet" (reverse repulsion) it is very hard to get to monsters thus harder to find/kill them

Szlat wrote:

Sorry guys, it's let's check where we are time.

If the subclasses are all balanced, then we should get them being played in roughly equal amounts.

That is not necessarily true... it assumes that there is no individual player bias towards a subclass, regardless of the reason.

For me, I have only one player which can do a subclass, and that is my LA player, which is currently EAM. My highest WM is like level 27, and I have no other classes right now worth mentioning. So clearly, I have a preferred bias towards AM, which in turn has resulted in my only having my EAM and a very low level which I have only stared playing in the past few weeks again.

Szlat wrote:

For the AM,
AM 166, Extreme AM 97, hybrids 7
Well, the base class is getting more plays than the extreme. So, basically ok, but perhaps a bit more for the Extreme AM?

Again, this is a personal bias. I will admit I should try out my main player as a hybrid, but I happen to like EAM, and not because of the globe experience.

Szlat wrote:

For the Eng,
Eng 48, Sent Spec 283, Turret Spec 34, Extreme Eng 7, Vehicle Spec 3, hybrids 3
Sentinel Specialist is way ahead. If this was being used as a team support subclass (e.g. medic) then I would be happier.
However, I am concerned about this character encouraging players to spawn sentinels and stop in a safe place linking the sentinels.

I have to say here that given one, or perhaps two Engs on a map, they can own the map. Sents placed just right, or turrets, and I am very much into the situation I will mention, once again, below...

Szlat wrote:

The Extreme AM isn't excessively popular, but has a very high xp return. So I assume they can get huge xp from spheres, but players don't really enjoy that. How about we reduce the xp from spheres but give them more offensive power?

Suggestions?

You asked for it...

First, consider the WM... every wave, they start with a certain amount of ammo, which they use for kills, be it a respawn or having survived the wave. Even my lowly WM at level 26 or so starts with all weapons at something like 40-50% of max ammo at a minimum, and there are multiple weapons with their own ammo levels.

Next, let us consider the engineers. Do you need to worry about ammo levels for sentinels, turrets, etc which are the tools used for kills? NO. And last I checked, the engineer weapon for healing them was still infinite ammo, and it was something you spawned with. So for as long as they have access to their constructions, they can heal them and continue to kill with them. And yes, they are effectively static, but on some maps, this does not matter one bit. Take a look at toy story, at how much you can cover from just two or three positions. And so, we have no limitations on killing by ammo, adren. or other supplies.

Medics and their subclasses... medic weapon was infinite as well, last I checked, and the monsters are effectively unlimited ammo, so long as you heal them. So again, no real limitation based on ammo/adren, etc. Just on monster health and individual health, once you pick up a weapon and spend a minimal amount of adren to make a medic weapon.

Finally, let us look at the AM classes...

First... at least for base AM and EAM, no regen or vamp, and no guarantee of a healing weapon. You rely entirely on health found on the map, healing by other players, and in dire situations, doing the BACK-BACK-BACK-BACK regen combo, which is not stoppable short of hopping in a vehicle. They are fragile.

As for killing... weapons are nerfed for EAM, meaning lower damage to trigger leach, and fewer kills with weapons. The focus is the artifacts. However... all artifacts work off the same adren pool, unlike weapons, and so regardless of whether I use a globe to increase the damage of my group, or a rod or a beam, it all comes out of the same pool. Worse, if someone kills a bug I have been working on killing, I loose the adren surge, and if someone is also damaging it, say with a sentinel or turret, I don't get adren I would have gotten through leach, meaning I effectively run out of what works as the ammo for the EAM. This is something I have said REPEATEDLY... even if I get a Holy Crap spree, I can run out of ammo with other players around me. Especially if there is a Berserker, Engi, or generalist (all of which are overpowered IMO) sucking up kills.

Next, on the same subject... there is a disparity between the EAM and other classes. Even with LA5 as an EAM, if I was at 0 adren at the end of the map, I start with 0 adren. Compare this to the WM which starts with at least 30-40% on all weapons at the beginning of each wave, or with the other classes which have no limit on killing because of some limited supply of ammo/adren. And those classes cost the EAM in accruing their adren, which is needed for running the artifacts.

Now, it has been suggested that I could score better just running a globe, something which has been acknowledged as being too high in XP (and yet, the class is as you say "isn't excessively popular"). Don't say that the only thing I should be doing is running a globe... If so, then why do I have offensive weapons? Sure, there might be times I might be the last player on... but medics have ways to kill and do more than heal, engineers do more than build blocks, etc. EAM should be able to competitively kill bugs as well.

Remedies needed for EAM?
1) The EAM should start each wave with at least 50% of our adren. I would actually suggest 100% of it, given it is a common pool needed by all artifacts, unlike the separate pools for weapons of a WM, or the unlimited pools for Engi's and medics.

2) Perhaps parallel to what Road said (bypassing the weapons = shooting = adren and going straight to the EAM's true ammo, adren)... adjustments in leach/surge. Yes, in some instances, it is effectively unlimited ammo, but what about the engi's turrets/sentinels/vehicles (all of which have higher total effective health than a maxed out EAM, with similar mobility and in some cases much further range), but in other instances, it is far better than not being able to even kill a pupae with 10 or more shots of a beam or rod, much less being able to take on a titan, warlord or queen (or red skaarj for that matter).

3) If the globes are what is leading to the huge XP for the EAM, tweek the XP given down a bit.

This is not asking for better weapon use, a AM specific weapon, etc. Just giving the AM something more in line with the ammo concerns, or lack thereof, that the other classes have. Leave the class effectively fragile.

BTW... if you have a way of going through that data and removing Elite's players, and perhaps one or two others, if they stand out consistently, you might get better statistics that way.

And, if you know of a way to get some of us dups of our high level players, I would be more willing to play the AM hybrids, like AM/WM, or maybe even AM/MM. AM/WM might be something which would fit my style, but...

Well Szlat Im not agree in some statements u make for example:

You are studying the balance of the classes with a few players lvl 200+ , I mean most them have their preferences and play style in choosing each class, how about IF there are like 5 engineers lv 200+ and only 2 of them from 5 get online anytime time, those that are online prefer to choose sentinel specialist because thats a personal choice of them, that doesnt mean that class is too popular, Like I have said before the real test starts when u let all the players get the subclasses available so u will see what class is the favorite one, Just think in 5 berserkers online doing titan wave, its not the same as 2 zerkers online.

The real balance starts when all people choose a subclass.

Now you will see real numbers there.

My idea is to release the subclasses to public and you will se the balance u have to make on them.

I will also have to agree to Ryuxen's point. It is just an extension of my first point. Most folks will have a bias towards which class they play the most. And, to take this further, even Elite will have a bias in his play towards one class or another. This is born out in the fact that his score/min figures on GameTracker show a value of 87.14 for is AM, vs 74.57 for his WM, 74.4 for his medic, and 69.53 for his Engineer.

And complicate this with numbers. For example, you put a single Engi in a map such as say ToyStory, Nox, Deck (or any other map), it is far different than if you two, three or more on the same map. The same is true of any other class. Only on the really big maps like the hunting grounds one, will things start balancing out some. But they will never balance out completely.

I can't help but wonder how my playtime might effect those numbers. Being as there are only 6 distinct players on their berzerkers, that fact that I log a lot of game time and only play berzerker (Desert_wrath). Note the average player level. What happens if you subtract my stats from that list? I would hate to see zerkers nerfed or otherwise tweaked because of my zerker addiction.

Oh and Szlat, if you do check on my playing time please don't share it with me, I don't want to know