AMs getting xp for team activities

greg11 wrote:

Szlat wrote:

.....However, as a separate issue, I am still looking for other ways that AMs can get xp for team play.

Why not give xp for making magic weapons/max.

This has been talked about a number of times, but let's revisit it in case anything has changed.

I think trying to tie the xp in to uses of the MWM or Max is difficult. I think we may be better logging who created the weapon and shared it, then giving that person a small percentage (e.g. 1%) of the xp generated by that weapon (direct damage only - no spree bonuses). So if I shared a piercing 6 flak, and a player did say 25000 damage and got 500xp from it, then I would get 5 of that xp. Not a lot, but if I had shared it to 4 others as well, then I might get 25xp.

As to what the % should be, that will be a longer discussion. Someone will only pick up the weapon if it is at least a +1 over what they already have. And a +1 will do extra damage - typically 3-4%. So we could safely go for 2% of the damage xp being shared, and everybody wins.

Scenario 1. An AM spends the first 4 waves using his adrenaline to make himself a Vorpal shock, and then maxes it. The AM should not get any xp for that. The weapon cannot be shared, so it is not team beneficial (unless he gives the shock to someone else).

Scenario 2. An AM MWMs a piercing 6 flak and hands it out. High level players benefit a lot from that. The AM should get a share of the xp the high level players are getting.

Scenario 3. A WM spawns with a percing 6 flak and hands it out. Shouldn't he get the same benefit as the AM in 2 above?

Scenario 4. A WM shares a Piercing 5 flak. An AM takes it and maxes and shares it. Who gets the xp from the piercing 6 - the AM or the WM?

Scenario 5. An AM gives me a piercing 6 flak. I throw it away. I go back to the spawn point and pick up a new piercing 6 flak. Does the AM still get xp?

Scenario 6. An AM gives me a Vorpal 10 shock. I max+1 it to +11. Does the AM still get the xp?

Scenario 7. An AM does a remote max on a negative weapon. Should the AM get xp for that weapons damage? (note that currently the AM gets 15 xp for doing the remote max - or should that now be dropped in favour of damage related xp?)

Scenario 8. An AM does a remote Max on a negative weapon. The player then throws it away so he can pick up the piercing 6 a WM is handing out. If no xp for doing the remote max, then the AM gets nothing.

Scenario 9. An AM makes a piercing 6 and hands it out to one person. That person spends a whole wave standing handing out the piercing 6. Who gets the xp - the creator of the weapon or the one that shared it?

So, all very complicated with lots of odd conditions to think about. We would need a simple ruling, that is easy to implement, and is fair.

I think that it should only be AMs who get some sort of experience percentage from other players doing damages with handed out weapons, so... In order for the AM to have "helped" another player, I figure it should only be weapons that an AM has MWM'd. This would mean that to get some exp back the AM would have to put in a minimal effort of 100 adren to have MWM'd the weapon.

As for handing out and then dropping the weapon, I'm not too sure what a fair way of doing that would be. I might try and think up one :]

And with the issue of another AM max +1'ing a weapon given by another AM, I think that if another AM decides to use 250 adren to max +1 a weapon given to them, that they should be entitled to keep their exp.

Are we talking about taking experience away from the wielder of the weapon and giving it [the AM]?

Or are we talking a pure gravy benefit on top of that?

I wouldn't really support the first option, but the latter sounds reasonable.
On the other hand, at the numbers you're proposing, it seems like it's a very, very marginal thing. I'm not sure it would be worthwhile given the effort that would seem to be involved in tracking who handed out a weapon, figuring out how much damage it's caused, and then deriving experience from that.

The other thing to consider is that not all weapons are designed for killing. A protection weapon won't necessarily rack you up lots of kills, but if it keeps you alive and you (for example) lay out a lot of healing blasts as a result (gaining experience thereby), it's hard to say that wasn't playing a role.

Sounds like a coding nightmare to track if a weapon that is handed out.

Maybe something simpler would be to instute an award 'Sharing Bonus' where if you hand out weapons and they are picked up by X number of people in X amount of time, you would get a small Sharing Bonus xp value.

I really would like to see some more of the team artifacts used as well but the price to xp ratio on them are currently weak and dont justify the use of adrenaline. Sure most of them help the team (which is a good thing) but AM's see very little return on it.

I'd like to see the remote damage changed where while thier under the effect of it for 20s, we share the same portion of XP they get as if you were linked up with them using a link gun while under the effects. That would make the remote damage a whole lot more useful. Same goes for the Damage Sphere where we get the same portion of XP as if we were linked up with each person in the sphere. Remote Invuln. is a very very very situational artifact as it only lasts 8 seconds and hard to time it where that person would of died in those 8 seconds (really think this one could be removed along with freeze blast imo).

One thing that's always bugged me about the sphere's is that both currently cost 20 adrenaline/second yet the single one's are not the same cost.
Triple = 7 for Self / 20 for Sphere. (185% more)
Globe = 12 for Self / 20 for Sphere. (66% more)
Globe price is pretty fine since it does grant invulnerability but triple cost is a bit high if you followed the same lines. (If it was like Globe then it should be 12 per second at 66%)
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Also if AM's are going more of a team support roll, would like to see a few more artifacts along that lines put in.

Remote Beserk= Cost 100 adrenaline = Increases attack speed of targeted player by 25% for 45s (what ever the time it takes Beserk to run 100 adrenaline). Awards xp to the caster for the damage done in the same amount as linking up with them with the link gun.

Sphere of Beserking= Cost 10 adrenaline/second = Increases attack speed of all players under the sphere by 25%. Awards xp to the caster for the damage done in the same amount as linking up with them with the link gun.

Remote Damage = Cost 100 adrenaline = Grants the target a double damage for 30s. Awards xp to the caster for the damage done in the same amount as linking up with them with the link gun.

Sphere of Damage = Cost 12 adrenaline/second = Increases damage done by all players under the sphere by 100%. Awards xp to the caster for the damage done in the same amount as linking up with them with the link gun.

Sphere of Invulnerability = Cost 18or20 adrenaline/second = Grants all players under the sphere, invunlerability. Awards xp to the caster for the damage done in the same amount as linking up with them with the link gun.

Remote Double Magic Modifier = Cost 100 adrenaline = Doubles the target's weapon modifier for 30s. Awards xp to the caster for the damage done in the same amount as linking up with them with the link gun.

Sphere of Double Magic Modifier = Cost 12 adrenaline/second = Grants all players under the sphere a double modifier to thier equiped weapon. Awards xp to the caster for the damage done in the same amount as linking up with them with the link gun.

Double Magic Modifier = Cost changed to 8 adrenaline/second = Feel that really this is just a tad too expensive adrenaline cost wise and lowered the value just a little.

Adrenaline Injection = Drains adrenaline and add's to health. Same adrenaline to health as booster but at 3 times the rate and does not grant shields. (I think booster is like 15-20 health per 5 adrenaline so 3-4 to 1 ratio.). So if booster would have granted 150 health over 50 seconds, the injection would have restored the same 150 health in like 15-20s. Its pretty much an accelerated booster that can be toggled on and off for AM's. See booster has its own problem to use for AM's since it stops all gains from Drip until you either run out of adrenaline (which can take a while), or reach +99 base health and max shields (which again, takes a while). This artifact allows us to turn it on and off as we please and restores life at a faster rate then booster. This artifact however only restores UP TO base max and DOES NOT restore shields. This artifact is self only (were not medics).

Those are just some of the ideas i've come up with to allow more of a team oriented AM. A few cost changes and XP changes to several of the artifacts.

Wail wrote:

Are we talking about taking experience away from the wielder of the weapon and giving it [the AM]?

Yes

Dracos wrote:

One thing that's always bugged me about the sphere's is that both currently cost 20 adrenaline/second yet the single one's are not the same cost.
Triple = 7 for Self / 20 for Sphere. (185% more)
Globe = 12 for Self / 20 for Sphere. (66% more)
Globe price is pretty fine since it does grant invulnerability but triple cost is a bit high if you followed the same lines. (If it was like Globe then it should be 12 per second at 66%)

I believe the triple is actually 10 per sec on DC.
As stated elsewhere, after the next build, the spheres will be 18 per sec rather than 20.
However, since the damage sphere is only a double not a triple (because a triple would stop people using piercing weapons!), even 18 may be a bit overpriced, so I might reduce it down to 12.This would allow a high level AM to run it for 20 secs. If 5 people in the sphere, he would get 100xp for it.

Szlat wrote:

Wail wrote:

Are we talking about taking experience away from the wielder of the weapon and giving it [the AM]?
Yes

Wouldn't it be based of the same code where like 50% of the xp gained from linking on someone. I thought that if you were linked up with someone, they would get full xp for damage and the linkers would get 50% of that. Unless I'm completly wrong on the xp gained from linking to somone as i've never really payed much attention to my xp values when killing things.

Szlat wrote:

I believe the triple is actually 10 per sec on DC.
As stated elsewhere, after the next build, the spheres will be 18 per sec rather than 20.
However, since the damage sphere is only a double not a triple (because a triple would stop people using piercing weapons!), even 18 may be a bit overpriced, so I might reduce it down to 12.This would allow a high level AM to run it for 20 secs. If 5 people in the sphere, he would get 100xp for it.

Really. I was just getting the 7 per second from the wiki. And I had forgotten that the sphere was double and not triple. Had the remote right, just the sphere wrong.

oo I see an ulcer in the future

good luck szlat it does sound like a coding nightmare

I honestly don't have enough experience as a AM to help much here but if Elite, Buster, Micron , Ratar ... can help out they might be the best to ask
hint hint speak up !! o masters of the adrenaline

I'm not into the whole getting xp for handing out weapons thing. I hand out good weapons as they come. (team player here)

I do wish however that I could still hand out a +6 piercing flak after I have made it a 7.

Now that I'm maxed I feel bad +1'ing a weapon knowing that I cant hand it out anymore.

I would use the spheres more if they regened my adren from players using them. Nobody ever throws adren at you to keep spheres going. (hint people)

I also thinks there is a conflict between team help and personal gain use of adren. eg. begin wave six "can someone max my flak" this is a personal conflict, do I max the weapon and lose my chance to up my score or do I ignore request and max at end of wave if I have enough adren left.

Is it possible to award adren instead of xp?
Could it be a skill to buy/choose?
eg. "earn xp for sphere/maxing" , or "earn adren for sphere/maxing"
If you buy 1 you cant get the other.

I dunno just a thought.

Well here I go again posting about something that will probably be ignored anyway. I find it hard to come up with ways to "fix" the AM class to make it more team friendly when the class is in many ways more team oriented than the WM.

There is nothing wrong with the AM class, except for the triple plus artifacts problem that we have discussed to exhaustion.

Although there is no doubt in my mind it would be nice to have other ways to score adren and XP but why?

The whole point of playing on a server like this one is so that you can play how you want . If you want to join the group hiding behind the blocks and use spheres...great! If you want to go around killing things and fend for yourself....great! If you want to spend the entire map healing yourself and others...fantastic! You want to hand out every good weapon you come across instead of increasing your score....why not!? If you want to keep the weapon for yourself to give yourself an edge....not recommended...but hey thats up to you!

My point is it doesnt matter how team oriented you make a class, this server is about individual preference and skill levels from amateur to pro.

Next we will be cutting medics off at the knees so they cant gain xp from damaging monsters.

Seriously, this game is going to be 5 years old soon, dont you think we should just play it and enjoy it?

@Micron:

I agree that I think the AM is more team-oriented than the WM. In fact, at least from my experience on Monster Mash, I find the AM more team oriented than the Medic, and that's at Druids200 (before any extra/team artifacts). Our server has a good number of people who are on Ventrilo while they play, and having AMs call out weapons that they roll for others to copy is an absolute staple of the game.

Ratar_Killer wrote:

I do wish however that I could still hand out a +6 piercing flak after I have made it a 7.
Now that I'm maxed I feel bad +1'ing a weapon knowing that I cant hand it out anymore.

Slightly off topic here, but I have mis-givings about the Max+1 as well. For starters it is an entirely selfish artifact that as you say inhibits team play. And as I would expect Adrenaline Masters to have the best artifacts and Medics to have the best healing skills, so I would expect Weapons Masters to have the best weapons. The Max+1 clearly stops that.

Ratar_Killer wrote:

Is it possible to award adren instead of xp?
Could it be a skill to buy/choose?
eg. "earn xp for sphere/maxing" , or "earn adren for sphere/maxing"
If you buy 1 you cant get the other.

Interesting idea. So you hand out a piercing weapon and a proportion of the adrenaline created by that weapon comes back to you. I wouldn't go for the skill - one way or the other for everyone to keep it simple.

Micron(Micron) wrote:

I find it hard to come up with ways to "fix" the AM class to make it more team friendly when the class is in many ways more team oriented than the WM.

I am proposing that the benefits from sharing weapons applies to all classes, not just AMs. And WMs often start with good weapons, and to be honest share what they have as much as AMs. They just do not have as good after wave 1.
Any suggestions on how to provide enticements to make WMs more team friendly?

Micron(Micron) wrote:

The whole point of playing on a server like this one is so that you ... can play how you want....

I am not trying to stop people playing as they want to. In fact, this is being discussed again because people keeping asking that they want xp for sharing weapons. So I am trying to help people play as they want to. So that people who do spend waves handing out weapons do not feel ripped off. This possible change, if we come up with a viable solution, will not hurt anyone, nor will it stop anyone doing anything. It will make one style of playing (sharing weapons) slightly less negative - anyone can get more xp from killing monsters in a wave than they would get back from these proposals - but it makes the standing around slightly more palatable.

One way to get more team play would be to introduce a new game type - IronMan RPG invasion.

Give 2000xp per person for winning the map

Enable IronMan mode - so if you lose you get nothing - not even the xp from kills

Make the monsters more difficult

So people can vote for the normal invasion, or can vote for this - where the rewards can be good, but without team play you all die. And the difficulty would be set so that even with good team play you only win at most one in two.

Szlat wrote:

One way to get more team play would be to introduce a new game type - IronMan RPG invasion.

Give 2000xp per person for winning the map

Enable IronMan mode - so if you lose you get nothing - not even the xp from kills

Make the monsters more difficult

So people can vote for the normal invasion, or can vote for this - where the rewards can be good, but without team play you all die. And the difficulty would be set so that even with good team play you only win at most one in two.

Couldnt you do that as another game time during the map vote since you can change what gametype there and the mutators associated with it. Sounds interesting.