Classes

Do we want them or not?

Certainly the Engineer class will not be here in the near future. And the Adrenaline Master could hit problems with no adrenaline?

One of the reasons for implementing Classes was to stop high level players being too powerful and having everything. An alternative for achieving the same would be have a max level of say 200 after which you cannot level further, but you can re-spend your points.
So if you buy vampire and energy leech, there will be other things you cannot afford, like resupply.

I'm not particularly fond of the idea of classes, I'd prefer a more dynamic system with ability trees based on prerequisites and exclusion from certain lines.

That said, there's nothing inherently wrong with classes. I do think, however, that any RPG conversion should not focus on replicating UT2004's classes to RPG. Each class had a lot of problems and I think it's a good idea to think about classes in the context of RPG as a whole to try and address them first.

[quote=Anonymous]I'm not particularly fond of the idea of classes, I'd prefer a more dynamic system with ability trees based on prerequisites and exclusion from certain lines.

That said, there's nothing inherently wrong with classes. I do think, however, that any RPG conversion should not focus on replicating UT2004's classes to RPG. Each class had a lot of problems and I think it's a good idea to think about classes in the context of RPG as a whole to try and address them first.[/quote]

Just a note, this was me. Forgot to log in.

Before we go any further, are we talking about UT2004 or UT3?

(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

Before we go any further, are we talking about UT2004 or UT3?

UT3

UT3, seeing as it's posted in the UT3 section

sorry couldn't help the dig

Sorry, double posted somehow...

Snicker, sorry, this post is in the RPG Conversion, not the UT3, but you are right, I should have caught the drift (blame it on the 5:00 PM blues). Mea culpa.

As to classes, dunno.....mixed feelings.

Szlat and Dru both know how I feel about some of the problems regarding the engineer class, so I won't repeat them here. However, having said that, I would strongely encourage everyone that we try to keep the current class setup (LW/LA/LM/LE) as much as possible.

At the same time, what modifications will transfer over is the prime consideration. It would be boring to have INV with just LWs, for example.

(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

At the same time, what modifications will transfer over is the prime consideration. It would be boring to have INV with just LWs, for example.

I agree. Weapon Masters have all passive abilities, which makes them pretty much identical to playing the game without RPG. The only noticeable difference is you have weapons that fire twice as fast. That might be a benefit if it weren't an always-on, available-to-everyone ability, but with the way RPG is structured it is simply keeping up with the Joneses.

I also think it's boring to play a Medic class, since you basically buy your Medic Weapon Maker with your starting points, and then you have nothing distinctive about you for another hundred to two hundred levels, when it might be worth it to dump points into Monsters. I'm really hoping the idea of having a single "Medic Weapon" with infinite ammo is dropped -- I think forcing a class to rely on one weapon, in a game that's about wielding different weapons to kill opponents, is a critical design flaw.

I'd say get the rpg up and working first with a way that some point in the future additional classes can be added. Its' going to be a lot of work to get something working properly and then balancing that out to begin with.

Wail wrote:

I also think it's boring to play a Medic class, since you basically buy your Medic Weapon Maker with your starting points, and then you have nothing distinctive about you for another hundred to two hundred levels, when it might be worth it to dump points into Monsters. I'm really hoping the idea of having a single "Medic Weapon" with infinite ammo is dropped -- I think forcing a class to rely on one weapon, in a game that's about wielding different weapons to kill opponents, is a critical design flaw.

Have to strongly disagree here I love the medic class if you watch some of the mid to high range medics you will see very different styles of play and a willingness to forfeit kills to benefit all players on by healing. I believe if that classes are of utmost importance to this server as they promote teamwork amongst all players and help newer players survive and thus enjoy DC that much more

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

Wail wrote:

I also think it's boring to play a Medic class, since you basically buy your Medic Weapon Maker with your starting points, and then you have nothing distinctive about you for another hundred to two hundred levels, when it might be worth it to dump points into Monsters. I'm really hoping the idea of having a single "Medic Weapon" with infinite ammo is dropped -- I think forcing a class to rely on one weapon, in a game that's about wielding different weapons to kill opponents, is a critical design flaw.

Have to strongly disagree here I love the medic class if you watch some of the mid to high range medics you will see very different styles of play and a willingness to forfeit kills to benefit all players on by healing. I believe if that classes are of utmost importance to this server as they promote teamwork amongst all players and help newer players survive and thus enjoy DC that much more

Well, I'm not saying I haven't enjoyed playing a Medic. I do enjoy playing a Medic character in RPG, but for the same reason I enjoy playing Clerics and Healers in other games -- Because I enjoy playing support-class characters, helping my team, and like to know that we've got someone reliable filling that role.

But saying that "I enjoy this" and "I think this is well designed" are two different things. The Medic class is most definitely front loaded, and it's pretty silly that the ability every Medic should buy right off the bat is the best and most significant and defining ability you'll get in your entire playtime. Monsters are unique, but it hardly makes sense to purchase them until you've maxed out your DB/WS/DR/ADR/Health and most of the abilities you want to purchase, such as Ghost.

I also don't think it's appropriate to restrict a class to using a single weapon type. There's 19 other weapon types in RPG, but since Medics are restricted from gaining Resupply, they're effectively unable to use these weapons. At high levels of weapon speed, and with the amount of HP and monsters that may spawn in a wave, running out of ammo is inevitable. The combination of this and the above is pretty horrible.

Lets assume we bring all of this over to UT3 straight off the bat. Here you are, a level 1 Medic, buy your Medic Weapon Maker and grab a Stinger or Rocket Launcher and you'll know exactly what the next hundred levels are going to entail. At least UT3 doesn't have a Spider Mine Layer or it'd be that.

Anonymous wrote:

.....I also don't think it's appropriate to restrict a class to using a single weapon type.....

Would it be better for medics to have an ability so any friendly fire is healing? Buy in multiple levels to increase healing rate. No infinite medic weapon, but can buy resupply.

And keep healing blast for group situations - if no adrenaline then just give them a 30 second timer before they can re-use.

Wail wrote:

I'm not particularly fond of the idea of classes, I'd prefer a more dynamic system with ability trees based on prerequisites and exclusion from certain lines.

One of the problems with this though is that it is more difficult to understand what impacts on what. In the days before classes, there was a system that if you bought some skills then you were restricted from others. So as a new player, you see regeneration and buy it - not knowing that it forced you down a path and excluded you from other things. The comments on an ability frequently state what the pre-requisites are, but cannot easily say what it excludes you from in an extendible system.
At least classes help define what route you are taking. Once you choose the class, you cannot then accidently choose something that limits your further purchases.

Szlat wrote:

Wail wrote:

I'm not particularly fond of the idea of classes, I'd prefer a more dynamic system with ability trees based on prerequisites and exclusion from certain lines.
One of the problems with this though is that it is more difficult to understand what impacts on what. In the days before classes, there was a system that if you bought some skills then you were restricted from others. So as a new player, you see regeneration and buy it - not knowing that it forced you down a path and excluded you from other things. The comments on an ability frequently state what the pre-requisites are, but cannot easily say what it excludes you from in an extendible system.
At least classes help define what route you are taking. Once you choose the class, you cannot then accidently choose something that limits your further purchases.

There are different approaches to this. Both Titan and ONSRPG use RPG variants that do not have classes. Perhaps it is gametype related (Titan mostly does VCTF, ONSRPG does ONS). As to people making mistakes when buying abilities, the ONSRPG variant of RPG has a rebuild button allowing people to re-spend their points.