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Considerations for Better Balance and GamePlay  XML
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Szlat

Wicked Sick!

Joined: 05/18/2005 18:32:41
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Trooper wrote:
...on a different side of things now, this has been suggested before but I dont recall the outcome... just that its not in atm. I was thinking if there could be an armour blast for engi, like the shield blast to heal turrets, sents, etc. there have been times I'm in a base healing a turret and I leave the turret for 3 secs to heal a dying defensive sent and in that time, the turret took enough damage to die. I dont think it should be a cheap cost blast. I think it should mainly be an "oh crap too many things are dying at once" button. if a medic has pets that are hurting, they can put out a healing blast or healing sphere to get them back up, so they can concentrate on other players or on enemies, but an engi has to stop what they are doing and take time healing only 1. even the medic rocket can heal more than 1 at a time. so I was thinking a 100 adren blast that heals the armour of constructions within a decent amount. since I dont know the health of sents, since when you spectate them it says they have -1200 health or something crazy like that, I cant give numbers there. 
I will hold fire on that. It might not be necessary in the next build since some defense sents heal armor.
Dracos

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Joined: 09/27/2007 13:36:52
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Szlat wrote:
and for comparison, what it is changing to. Items in red are different.
(Img goes here) 


You lowering max rod damage to 70 also. It wont change much since the only mob it will affect besides the titan are queens now since they have 800 life and used to have 80 damage done to them and make titans (which rod shouldn't be used on in the first place) take longer as well.


Frankly I think the max could be lowered all the way down to 40 as there are not many monsters above that value when you do 10% to them. Warlords, Giant Gasbags, Queens, Titans would not be the huge drain on it anymore and actually might have "a little" use for since the most it could do is 40 damage and drain 10 adrenaline every other second. Every other monster isn't affected by changing it from 100 to 40 since its capped at 10% of their max life and only those 5 species have more then 400 and the rod really shouldn't be used against them in the first place.

(BTW you haven't documented that yet in the changes )

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Dracos

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Double post, oops delete.

"The fun about this sentence is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything, it's too late to stop reading it."

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Spacey

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Joined: 01/07/2005 21:28:14
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Thanks for the tables... I think we should still see the turrets on the table though. In addition, it does not reflect the +1 that can be done by higher AMs, XAMs, and with the +1 modifier artifact which pops up. Also needed is the base max ammo, the max ammo after maxed ammo bonus, and time to exhaust (I guess we need to consider differing maxes on resupply as well). And on the artifacts, we need to see things like whether or not drip, leech and surge are active.

Also, I find two other interesting facts in the weapon data itself... The first is that it differs from what was posted by Atari/Epic ages ago in terms of fire rates, and in some cases the damage done per shot. But that could have been patched. I also find it interesting that you chose the flak instead of the link. From your table, the link does 225 vs. 197 for the flak. I will also suggest that the shock combo needs to be considered at times, but it's rate of fire is variable and it does variable damage, which I think is up to about 200. And yes, it takes some skill, but needs considered.

Oh... the one atari link I could find is... http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=363686 but I don't have all my references with me... I am visiting family in SE Ohio right now.

I will likely have more comments later, when I can pull up both tables side by side to compare (wishing the changes were also showing the old values say in strikeout or blue or something).

Also... where did that "assuming you can hit 4 targets/sec" come from? And how about the calculations involving adren on the artifacts? I cannot see where the beam figures pan out on the quick glance I have given. But then again, I am on a single smaller laptop screen instead of the screens on my workstation, so...

And also, given the data as given in the updated table... what happens when you hit several larger monsters, such as a Warlord, Queen or Titan? The table indicates 280/monster/sec, with the base 140 damage costing 35 adren. Now what happens if we meet up with 4 of them. We are doing a base total of 560 damage/sec, using 140 adren, and in 2 seconds, unless we kill them (oh gee... 280*2 = 560, so we might, if we are lucky on targeting, just kill some of the 4 warlords), we get no surge, and are darn near out of adren. I have not added in leech here, but still.... The point I am trying to make here is that just the rod itself makes it extremely easy to run an AM out of adren, given just a few warlords, to say nothing of queens or titans, which **you will not kill**. Yep, adding the triple takes the 140/monster/sec base damage to 420/monster/sec, at the cost of (14/monster/sec)+the triple's cost. But still...

Expect more Sunday or Monday when I get back to this though. But my thoughts are that of several others... I think things are being biased even more against the AM/XAM, especially when you consider things like loss of adren from leech/surge when others also damage and kill monsters, etc.

Oh... and one thing I will throw out as a possible alternative... reduce the range a little, and perhaps make the range a non-circular pattern, where it is biased in front of the player and lessened behind.

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Wail

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Joined: 09/20/2007 21:14:41
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Spacey wrote:
Thanks for the tables... I think we should still see the turrets on the table though. In addition, it does not reflect the +1 that can be done by higher AMs, XAMs, and with the +1 modifier artifact which pops up. Also needed is the base max ammo, the max ammo after maxed ammo bonus, and time to exhaust (I guess we need to consider differing maxes on resupply as well). And on the artifacts, we need to see things like whether or not drip, leech and surge are active. 


TBH whether drip/leech/surge affect things is kind of orthogonal to the damage output, which I think is all this chart is meant to show. Producing a "Balance of Everything" chart is infeasible, IMO.

I do think that Berserk ought to be listed there, and it's worth taking into consideration the Advanced Damage Bonus skill as well (as if this chart wasn't big enough already). I'm actually quite scared to see what that final DPS would look like with a Piercing Flak +7 Berserked+DD+ADB.
Spacey

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Wail wrote:


TBH whether drip/leech/surge affect things is kind of orthogonal to the damage output, which I think is all this chart is meant to show. Producing a "Balance of Everything" chart is infeasible, IMO.

I do think that Berserk ought to be listed there, and it's worth taking into consideration the Advanced Damage Bonus skill as well (as if this chart wasn't big enough already). I'm actually quite scared to see what that final DPS would look like with a Piercing Flak +7 Berserked+DD+ADB.  


It is quite relevant though, because it impacts how much adren the AM/XAM will regain to offset the artifact's use. If all we get are the adren surges from the kills, and there are other folks pounding on the same bug(s), then the odds of us getting adren from the kills, along with the bonuses for the sprees drops, and soon we have an AM/XAM with no adren, and acting as nothing more than a rock magnet.

*BEL*_e (spacey), BEL Clan General -- You Frag em, I'll Slag em!
LA -- *BEL*_e (level 283 - Extreme AM), LW -- *BEL*_o (level 26) MM - ?? ( *BEL*_Rolaids ?? *BEL*DrWho??, Engineer... *BEL*BS_E_E [BSEE '89, Ohio U] (level 22)

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Szlat

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Joined: 05/18/2005 18:32:41
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Spacey wrote:
... I think we should still see the turrets on the table though. 
OK. Here is a separate table for turrets. I think the triple can be used with all of them, but I haven't checked. Note this will just double the damage, not triple it.

Spacey wrote:
In addition, it does not reflect the +1 that can be done by higher AMs, XAMs, and with the +1 modifier artifact which pops up. 
Agreed. XWMs cannot be relied upon to have weapons at +1, so the +1 figure shouldn't be used for these comparisons.

Spacey wrote:
Also... where did that "assuming you can hit 4 targets/sec" come from?  
That amount of damage requires you to press the fire key exactly every 0.25 secs, and each time have a monster in your sights. Most monsters will be killed by the first hit.

Spacey wrote:
Yep, adding the triple takes the 140/monster/sec base damage to 420/monster/sec, at the cost of (14/monster/sec)+the triple's cost. 
Note that the triple only doubles the damage in invasion, so it would only increase to 280.

Wail wrote:
...and it's worth taking into consideration the Advanced Damage Bonus skill as well  
Ok, I have added the Advanced Damage Bonus to the XWM column, since they will have it.
 
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