Balancing Extreme AM.

I noticed in the 226 Subclass Balance Issues thread, there was no discussion about the extreme AM subclass, and Hatter's thread didn't seem to go anywhere in regards to changes. Is the general consensus among players that this subclass is balanced? Because my experiences with it have shown the complete opposite; it overpowers the AM by a long shot.

I could just be biased because I generally don't use the beam as a normal AM as much as most, and using it so much as EAM just feels wrong, but I've noticed my scores are consistently higher as this subclass, despite spending far more time since level 130 as the base class. I even broke 4k on Smelter yesterday with just bots, meaning I was the lowest level player at 189. No way could I have done that as a plain AM, and in fact I got fed up two maps before that because the monsters at my level were just too much. So I switched to EAM around wave 13, and finished the map without breaking a sweat. Bear in mind I kept a steady PPH of 4000 and scored about 1600 (thanks to a piercing flak) before switching. Then I decided to just pick a typical high-scoring map and see how far this baby would run. The resulting score and xp are linked to in my response to Hatter in

this thread. Bots kept taking the DD and I only nabbed it once.

I don't know about making sweeping changes to the class. Personally I think if you nixed energy shield 3, that would greatly help solve the problem. Level 2 is already powerful in saving my skin in close encounters; level 3 just encourages me to bum rush packs of warlords like a berserker and not get my rear end handed to me. The EAM already has the most devastating weapons at its disposal from the get-go; why is it more resilient in combat than the AM? I mean, who is typically more frail in mêlée: the battlemage, who is skilled with a sword but can only cast Lv. 3 Skull Trap (n00b!), or the evoker who is completely unarmed but can cast freakin’ Lv. 9 Meteor Swarm?

Say... if you're still open to ideas for new artifacts...

Anyway, I just wanted to get this discussed before the next build comes (whenever that will be), given the one after that may not be for a while. It's just my experience; take it for what it's worth, and hopefully we can get input from others in as well. If you want me to do any testing with the other subclasses to get more info before said build, let me know and I'll be happy to help. And thanks for the great work on the subclasses so far; they're a blast!

Thanks for the feedback.

The only change pending that affects AMs is the slightly faster fireball, which will help Extreme AMs slightly.

Looking at the logs, the Extreme AM looks very good in the 150-180 level range, but not so good at higher levels, so perhaps it just peaks a bit soon?

What do the other AMs think? And is it the Extreme AM that is overpowered, or the AM that is underpowered?

Szlat wrote:

Thanks for the feedback.

The only change pending that affects AMs is the slightly faster fireball, which will help Extreme AMs slightly.

Looking at the logs, the Extreme AM looks very good in the 150-180 level range, but not so good at higher levels, so perhaps it just peaks a bit soon?

What do the other AMs think? And is it the Extreme AM that is overpowered, or the AM that is underpowered?

Only thing I can say about my sub 35 AM is that I die 4 to 6 times a map unless I cower behind the engineers!!!!!!!!!!

I certainly don't think the normal AM is underpowered; I can keep pace with much higher level players if I push myself and use inventive artifact combos (berserk + triple + flak 5 + fireball + titans = win.) Though I am curious as to whether I've performed as well as I think as EAM or if I'm just paranoid; did you happen to continue logging XP gains, Szlat? It would be interesting to compare them if the data are available.

And Demon, I've been in that same spot twice - once when I first started my AM, and again after I reset at level 60-something. We all know what it's like to use an engineer as a meat shield.

The kicker is, it gets worse at 41.

Locrian wrote:

..... Though I am curious as to whether I've performed as well as I think as EAM or if I'm just paranoid; did you happen to continue logging XP gains, Szlat? It would be interesting to compare them if the data are available...

Since hitting level 180, I have 62 logged games for Superlocrian of duration more than 10 minutes.
As AM, you have played 54 times, average score 64 XP per minute, max 3976 XP
As EAM, you have played 8 times, average score 137 XP per minute, max 7457 XP

So it looks like you currently score double as an EAM.

However, there are 2 other players, who I will not name, who have played both AM and EAM above level 180.
The first has played
AM 16 times with an average of 79 xp/min
EAM 9 times with an average of 53 xp/min

The second has played
AM 27 times with an average of 53 xp/min
EAM 2 times with an average of 23 xp/min (probably too few games)

So in their two cases, the AM scores better than the EAM.

Looking at all players above level 180 that have played EAM, the average xp/min scores are 71, 77, 53, 23 and 137.
So 137 is definitely the odd case. Perhaps with more games your average might come down, or perhaps you have mastered the techniques for that subclass.

Interesting. Guess we need a bigger sample size before jumping to conclusions; with only 8 games, that Smelter one probably skewed the xp/min as it wasn't a typical match. I'll play some more as EAM in the next few days to get a clearer picture of XP gains. But if, as indicated by your statistics, it's not a widespread problem among players, then maybe there isn't need for widespread changes to the subclass? Maybe I am just paranoid.

Your 8 games have xp/min scores of 47, 59, 89, 108, 139, 172, 226, 258 with the 258 being Smelter. So yes the Smelter one has upped the average, but even without Smelter the average is pretty high.

I agree, play some more games and see how it goes.

WE'RE WATCHING YOU Locrian!

Szlat wrote:

....
Since hitting level 180, I have 62 logged games for Superlocrian of duration more than 10 minutes.
As AM, you have played 54 times, average score 64 XP per minute, max 3976 XP
As EAM, you have played 8 times, average score 137 XP per minute, max 7457 XP

So it looks like you currently score double as an EAM.

So now I have 86 logged games - you have been busy!
As AM, you have now played 61 times, average score 67 XP/min, max 4156
As EAM, you have played 25 times, average score 136 XP/min, max 7457

Another good score on Conduit nearly matching your previous best - but what happened on Elec Fields on the 1st? Played for 44 mins and scored 126 XP? Without that game and the following one on Tutorial Classic your XP/min would be 148 as EAM.

Odd. I don't recall playing a full game on Elec Fields recently with my AM; I believe I left or changed characters on wave 1 last time. Did your logs show Tutorial as a full game, too? Because I left on wave 5 after realizing that, between my fireball and Nutrition's skaarj, the low level players were getting nothing. I probably could have topped my Smelter score if I kept playing, but would likely regret it.

In addition to the energy shield 3 issue I raised in the initial post, I would also recommend nerfing the sphere/beam combo (preferably do the same thing you did with the triple.) Even with spending extra time to find the base or other players, deploying the sphere around them, then transing away, it is far too easy to dominate titan waves. And even with my attempt to help the team out by spawning the sphere in a useful location for others, it's still not a team-friendly tactic when I run out of things to kill all over the map and eventually return to drop titans before other players can even land a shot. And less team-oriented players can easily exploit this by turning the sphere on and off like a triple just to amp their beam.

That score on Conduit was due to 2 things: This tactic, and a Translocator of Force +6. I'm not comfortable with attributing it to player skill when there's such a huge discrepancy between my AM and EAM scores.

Update: I began testing EAM with only energy shield 2 and without using the sphere/beam combo today, just to see how it goes. First map with the new approach was Hyrule Castle.

Well, it's been a few days since I tried out the "nerfs." It's definitely nice to be mortal again and I actually stop for medics to heal me. Wave 12 is more of a challenge, like it used to be, and I have to be a little creative during titan waves to kill them at the same rate that I did with sphere/beam. I'm still scoring more than what I do with the base class, but at least it feels like I'm putting effort into it.

The subclass is still overpowered, though. Today in Tutorial, Elite was playing his WM and had the lead until wave 5, at which point I took first and he promptly left. If that doesn't tell you something is amiss, I'm not sure what does. I'm nowhere near the same caliber of player that he is - that's one of those no-brainer, universally-accepted truths, much like "the earth isn't flat" - so why am I scoring like him? I shouldn't be able to go from "average" to "awesome" just by changing subclasses; as Szlat said many times, the subs are just to add variety, not more power. And currently, I find that EAM offers plenty of both.

I'd like to suggest another change to the beam that would help bring scoring down while putting emphasis on skill, but I fear that implementing the change would mean Szlat and I getting lynched by the other AM's, so I'll hold that thought. The point is, EAM is still way too powerful, and I still don't feel like I've earned any of the bloated scores I've made so far.

The extreme AM is a little off, I concur with Locrain... in order for me to score high with my WM i have to constantly be switching between weapons in order to kill specific monsters. I constantly switch between mine layer, flak, link, shock, and avril; with those being my preferred weapons. Each weapon has its own uniqueness which makes it effective against the monsters. With the EAM there are 2 or 3 very powerful artifacts, the beam, fire-blast and rod if used correctly. If there is to be a change, make it so you have to constantly switch between artifacts to kill specific monsters just like a WM has to switch between weapons. At the moment any one of those 3 artifacts can kill any monster which shouldn't be so. One would not choose a mine-layer to kill a flying warlord, or choose a link against metallic monster. As I've stated before every weapon has its one uniqueness, but also has its own drawbacks, maybe the artifacts need the same thing. I would like to struggle to switch between artifacts the way I struggle with my WM. I also wanted to mention, the beam's piercing ability at least for EAM is too much, I am not sure about the regular AM's, but I know for a fact that the EAM does not need it.

I think the change I had in mind for the beam would address Elite's point. Basically, it’s what Ratar suggested back in 2007:have the beam’s cooldown timer initiate every time you hit the “use” key, whether you actually hit anything or not. It might have made sense to just have an adren penalty back then, but with the EAM’s heightened surge and drip powers, they’re not phased by it unless they’re already low on adren. Most of the time I can just mash the “use” key until I hit something without worry, which rewards finger seizures rather than good aim. With a timer penalty, I’d be forced to make each shot count or else risk delaying a valuable kill.

The fireball might as well be left as is – it’s very powerful with lower levels on, but completely useless if I’m the last one alive since it's evidently not an RPGWeapon and therefore does next to no damage. I never intentionally use the rod, and in fact have started tossing it at the start of each match, so I’ll let someone else suggest changes for it if needed.

As for the mention of piercing, I think EAM’s need the piercing on beam more than AM’s simply because they get 50% weapon damage; at least the base class can make and use piercing weapons effectively. And if Beam is like Fireball, without piercing it would do 1 damage when a high-level EAM is left, meaning he/she might as well just suicide. Leaving it as is, however, gives the EAM a huge advantage over all other subclasses: spawning with a piercing weapon with effectively unlimited ammo (though berserkers and tanks don't really need piercing weps IME). This is indicative of a broader problem, though: things being too easy for high level players when low levels are alive, and too hard for high level players when they’re the last ones left. And that’s another thread altogether.

Update: Here's the definite proof that EAM is overpowered: I just soloed wave 16 on Megawoot. Yes, Megawoot. Rapier can verify. In fact, it was his comments after the game - basically how this is the first time he's seen this - that made me realize just how wrong that is. You can only chalk so much up to skill before you realize that's an absolutely impossible map for any other class to go it alone on. Something's not right, here.

Okay, so I've been thinking long and hard on this subject, and I can't help but feel like the boosts to artifact damage are just too much. So here's a radical idea to demand more strategy from players while hopefully giving enough of a boost to artifacts to negate the need for conventional weapons:

Keep the reduced timers, the reduced weapon damage, surge 3, drip 4, and get rid of the increased artifact damage/adrenaline efficiency. Instead, have offensive artifacts take on the effects of whatever weapon you're holding. So if you have a vampiric shield gun +7, beam would have a 35% damage boost as well as healing you for whatever percentage damage you deal. Allow EAM's to buy denial 3. Basically, this would require EAM's to use strategy in order to make the most out of their artifacts. Using the DMM more often would actually make practical sense as magic vanilla weapons would be amped up to increase their damage boosting, which would give enough of a bump for titan waves but not so much as to be totally overpowering like sphere/beam.

Thoughts? Granted, I don't know how easy this would be to code as the most I know is very rudimentary C syntax, so Unrealscript is beyond me. If it's too insane of an idea, just tell me to shut up and I'll be on my merry way. This was one of those middle-of-the-night "A ha!" moments.

Stop drinking coffee so late in the day! lol