Extreme Engineer SubClass

I have a problem knowing what to do with this subclass.
In essence it ought to be a more extreme version of the Loaded Engineer - focused more on Engineering skills and less on other skills.
However, it needs to remain the same power as Loaded Engineer - different but not better.

So, it is easy to think of ways of boosting the Engineer skills - more points, more armor vampire, more rapid build and construction health bonus etc.
However, what should the normal Engineer lose as he becomes an extreme?
The comparison is currently as follows:
Code:

                               LE    XE 
 Summoning list                15    15  identical
 Shield Regen                  15     0
 Shield Healing                 3     1
 Armor Vampire                 10    15
 Contruct. Health Bonus        10    15
 Rapid Build                    5    10
 Sentinel - Armor Healing       0     5
 Sentinel - Shield Healing      0     5
 Can pick up rod?               Y     N
 Weapon damage multiplier     1.0   0.8
 Artifact damage multiplier   1.0   0.5
 Vehicle Damage multiplier    1.0   1.2
 Sentinel damage multiplier   1.0   1.2

So the Extreme Engineer loses Shield Regen, and 2 levels of Shield Healing (slightly offset by shield healing upgrade for the def sent), and in its place already probably gets too much.

At one point I had the Extreme Engineer with 20 levels of summoning (as the Sentinel Specialist has) so it too could summon 20 blocks and large barrels, but it was definitely overpowered then.

So, I suppose what I need is a definition of what skills the Extreme Engineer should have - given that it needs to be the same strength as the Loaded Engineer?
At the moment, I am tempted to dump it as there isn't sufficient difference between the LE and it. Unless I change the damage modifiers further?

ok, I posted already about this sorta, so I'll try to repost some of it (maybe with more focus on the class and subclass.

So what I ask first is this...
What does Extreme Engineer mean to me?

To be frank... it means... yer the dude that builds alot of stuff.
*EDIT* After re-reading this, I summarize on the last paragraph. You could skip right to that if you want.

level 20 summoning sounds spot on. Lots of blocks to make a solid base.
with current set up, 3 defense sents can be had with nice protection.
I would prefer it be able to have 2 Def and 1 Light sent, this allows for a little adren for the XE.

IMO... Drop Weapon damage multiplier to 0, drop artifact damage multiplier to 0. This leaves the XE with little damage from artifacts and hand weapons, which makes them depend on linking or operating a turret or vehicle. the problem here is that vehicles are very anti-team (unless changes are made that people and link vehicles). Do we have the possiblity to create new skills for Extreme? (more wall patterns would be nice too. columns, low wall made of big blocks, etc). What about lowering damage done by the stuff build, but making it so the XE gets more for linking or has an XP Leech attached to any turret/vehicle they spawn. The loss of shield blast and shield regen are quite huge for me. I also don't think that being forced to use a turret or vehicle is being extreme to me either. If that's the case, why not just use vehicle or turret specialist... you get neater toys.

I guess to me a good mix for XE would be what LE has now, but add more blocks (level 20), rapid build and some more construction pts for turrets, vehicles and sents. No need to change the construction health, turret or vehicle multipliers or armor vamp/regen. Feel free to lower artifact multipliers to 0, no Rod, keep the armor/shield healing sents.

what if they gain exp based on other people using their turrets?

tho im not an engi, (mi eng is 100 lvl or so)

Acyd wrote:

I guess to me a good mix for XE would be what LE has now, but add more blocks (level 20), rapid build and some more construction pts for turrets, vehicles and sents. No need to change the construction health, turret or vehicle multipliers or armor vamp/regen. Feel free to lower artifact multipliers to 0, no Rod, keep the armor/shield healing sents.

So from the normal engineer lose the ability to use the rod, but add an extra sentinel and rapid build.
And you think it will still be the same power as the normal engineer?
And is it really "extreme"?

Why not give it the ability to give shield 50 above normal like the extreme Med and perhaps let adrenaline combos work with the turrets, and sentinels. So when the user boosts the turrets or sentinels will also regenerate health or when the user uses beserk the turrets or sentinels will also begin to shoot twice as fast... I believe that will make it more extreme. But the ability to make more blocks for a better base and such is too passive and not in the liklihood of being extreme.
And I beleive the subclass already loses shield regen if I am correct so being able to heal shields up to 200 should be feasable.

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

what if they gain exp based on other people using their turrets?

If we add this ability, what ability will we drop from the LE to compensate?

Plus, I think we are encouraging in-game arguments to develop. Lots of engineers get very touchy about other people using their turrets/vehicles. If some players get the idea that they are supposed to get in engineers turrets and it is recommended behaviour, then I suspect we will generate some confusion and bad feeling.

Also, there will be the exploit that two engineers spawn turrets, and get in each other's turrets. So this cannot generate more xp than each engineer being in their own turret.
So when we are giving xp to the engineer who spawned the turret, it means some xp gets detracted from the person in the turret. This is possible, but will further complicate the "how much xp do the linkers get?".

So, I am not convinced. Certainly not until every engineer agrees that they do not mind other people using their turrets at any time. And that will not happen.

Well I will agree that we need to have a way to "lock" turrets and vehicles.
I don't usually mind others using my builds, but I do expect them to ask.

good points... I still go back to the idea of keeping damage bonuses, etc. as LE has, but allow more blocks, faster builds and more construction pts for vehicles/turrets. I don't think they need more power personally, I think for it to have the ability to build cooler bases would be fine. With the loss of shield blast and shield regen, you wouldn't need to compensate for much, correct?

I mean, if a XE can build 2 energy turrets (no difference in power), how does that help the XE? It doesn't. What about two benders? It doesn't. It helps the team (well.. ok, the bender only helps one other, but you get the idea).

Off topic (sorta)... there's little "fixes" for engineers that would be nice like:

Two new artifacts: Kill Defense Sentinels and Kill Offense Sentinels

Locking turrets/vehicles. (Eject is nice, but doesn't stop the player from hopping right back in, so then you have to sit there and spam eject so they will stay out.)

Engineer Link Gun - don't allow Magic Weapon Maker to be used on it

Sentinel Specialist: Remove artifacts that they can't possibly use. Kill All Vehicles, Kill All Turrets (just be less to scroll through)

Eng Hybrids and Specialists (I think): unable to pick up or load with normal Link gun

Translocator - (not really a fix, but a wish) - make this "Sturdy". I think think there's much advantage except to help them build a tad quicker and more proper.

Elite wrote:

Why not give it the ability to give shield 50 above normal like the extreme Med and perhaps let adrenaline combos work with the turrets, and sentinels. So when the user boosts the turrets or sentinels will also regenerate health or when the user uses beserk the turrets or sentinels will also begin to shoot twice as fast... I believe that will make it more extreme. But the ability to make more blocks for a better base and such is too passive and not in the liklihood of being extreme.
And I beleive the subclass already loses shield regen if I am correct so being able to heal shields up to 200 should be feasable.

The ability to heal 50 shield over whatever the player as max - that's an awesome idea. Again, it helps the team, doesn't really help the XE. Unless you carry that on to say that DefShield Healing will also take players up to +50 on their shield. In both cases, I think it's a great idea.

Elite and I talked about using the adren combos (berzerk mainly) and it's pretty neat idea. I more so like the idea of an offense sentinel taking on the same adren combo as the player (booster and berzerk mainly).

I'll also use this post to throw in my idea of "motivating" the Engineer class (and Medic class) to use the class specific weapon. Maybe this is a good time to add such a thing. It's a "loss" that XE could have. Unable to pick up any weapon they don't load with. That gives the XE a Engineer Link, Shield Gun, Assault Rifle and Translocator.

Ohh... I hear the whining now... "but what about metal titans... they're hard to kill". Well.... thems the breaks kids. Secondary fire works and so does shield guning, but more so... a lightning sent can work too, but then again, if you have proper defense sentinels up, it's still doable to use secondary fire on Elink.

At the moment, the only skills suggested that the Loaded Engineer could lose are:

Shield regen

Shield healing reduced to level 1

Possibly no other weapons, or just reduce weapon damage to 50%

No rod

This isn't a lot. If the engineer is going to be in a turret, then the loss of all these makes no difference.

That doesn't give much scope for being able to add extra skills to make the Extreme Engineer extreme.

Szlat wrote:

At the moment, the only skills suggested that the Loaded Engineer could lose are:

Shield regen

Shield healing reduced to level 1

Possibly no other weapons, or just reduce weapon damage to 50%

No rod

This isn't a lot. If the engineer is going to be in a turret, then the loss of all these makes no difference.

That doesn't give much scope for being able to add extra skills to make the Extreme Engineer extreme.

What about instead of adding Armor Vamp and Armor Regen to 15, why not reduce it to 5. Keeping in theme with a "build it and then will come" theory.
also, instead of just no rod, no rod, triple or mwm. They don't need mwm.. should be using Engi link, triple and rod are for more damage... they don't need more damage. (and losing triple is big. that's huge for using in the turret/vehicle).

What about toying around with not being able to use their own turret/vehicles? heh. Sounds dumb, but just because you can build something, doesn't mean you have the ability to use it =)

but I also wanted to point out that you named these for possible removal from XE:

Shield regen

Shield healing reduced to level 1

Possibly no other weapons, or just reduce weapon damage to 50%

No rod

but if you are keeping the sentinel damage/health the same as LE and removing the multipliers for turrets and vehicles that XE currently has... it's not real unbalanced - if the only stuff you are adding is more blocks, more turret/vehicles, etc. Right? Or are you heading down another route? Adding another sentinel (def only) and rapid build aren't damage oriented. These will only help the XE build a base quicker. The sentinel addition would be (I think) just 1 point. Just enough to have 2 def and 1 light. If that makes it too powerful, leave it like it is. It's not that huge of a deal really. The main reason I'd like to have the light sent isn't for the damage, it's for the adren (which is mainly to run booster).

Another idea for a new thing... (the light sent brought this to mind)

when in a base, another reason I like to have a light sent planted is for targetting the monsters. i.e. helping me find the monsters quicker.

so the new idea: Target Sentinel: shoots a red beam at monsters (no damage, just points them out)

Losing shield regen, reducing other weapons to 50% or possibly taking them out, along with no rod is a major hit to the engineer. This is a good nerf as long as it is followed by a substantial gain of some kind. And I don't think shield healing at level 1 is a good idea, not that it makes them less powerful only that it makes hem less team oriented. As I suggested above perhaps add a fourth level to increase the amount of shield given to 50+ , meaning a total of 200. So if this is taken what should be given? What boost could be greater and more unique than using adrenaline based combos that affect the users creations with only beserk and booster. Perhaps if the coding is too difficult then it could be like an artifact that doubles the firing speed for a certain amount of time depending on the adrenaline. But it should affect all things the user has built, and with respect to vehicles and turrets, they should only get the boost if the user is in them.

Acyd I think they mean to drop that stuff from the standard engineer and not the xtreme...to actually be able to make a XE char and have it BE different than the regular eng. Now I can agree on not being able to pick up other weapons but I do like to use the mini on gas bags and metal titans as a eng, so maybe just allow that as a pick up, if its not to hard to do.

No triple or globe doesn't phase me since I almost never use them! altho if a dbl pops up I turn mad man! lol In all my char's I like rods but you do need to limit certain classes on what artifacts they can get. well thats my 2 cents for this topic!

I am still not sure what way to go here.

I think as we go from LE to EE, we need to be focusng more on engineering based skills and less on others. So

They should be using vehicles and turrets for damage, not weapons. So limit normal weapon damage to 50%, and put a bonus of say +30% on vehicle/turret damage

This change will basically mean the EE will mainly be sitting in a turret or vehicle. If that is the case, shield related stuff isn't really relevant, and armor based stuff would be better:

It doesn't need shield regeneration, because it will be in a vehicle

There is no point giving it shield healing, as again it will be in a building. Instead, the shield healing addon to the defense sents will do the shield healing instead. Not as fast, but will help those around

No use of rod

Create an "Armor Blast" similar to Shield blast etc, for the EE that can be used from within a vehicle or turret. Gives them a use for their adrenaline

Give the large barrel to the EE instead of the Sent Specialist

We then have the list as now - +5 on Armor Vampire, +5 Construction Health, +5 rapid build.

But we could make a slight difference to the summoning list. Still keep it at 15 levels, but have the AutoGun as a 5 point Turret instead of a 8 point sentinel. This would allow the EE to summon at one time
- Ball Turret (or energy or minigun) [10 T points]
- AutoGun [5 T points]
- 3 defense sentinels [15 S points]
- 15 blocks [15 B points]
The Defense Sents, due to the level 5 shield and armor healing will be very useful to anyone else in the base. So that with the armor blast will be the Team helping aspects.

Is that Extreme enough, but balanced? Out of the turret, it will not last long.

So meaning a total of about level 20 armor vampire and level 20 construction health bonus? ... the extra 5 levels for rapid build will be useless since rapid build maxes its efficiency at level 10 making any build instant. A level 15 rapid build would not be necessary. And perhaps 5 extra levels on armor regen?

The thing that I do not like about this is...most of the time players link up to turrets. When this happens it doesnt matter who is in the turret it could be a level 5 or a maxed level engineer, the firepower will reach a peak. So when linked the amount of armor vamp, health bonus and armor regen isnt that fully useful.

Elite wrote:

So meaning a total of about level 20 armor vampire and level 20 construction health bonus? ... the extra 5 levels for rapid build will be useless since rapid build maxes its efficiency at level 10 making any build instant. A level 15 rapid build would not be necessary. And perhaps 5 extra levels on armor regen?

No, sorry I wasn't clear. I meant for the EE to have +5 on the LE. This is how is currently is. And currently thinking of Armor regen not changing. The same sort
of dripping armor is achieved by the def sents.

Elite wrote:

The thing that I do not like about this is...most of the time players link up to turrets. When this happens it doesnt matter who is in the turret it could be a level 5 or a maxed level engineer, the firepower will reach a peak. So when linked the amount of armor vamp, health bonus and armor regen isnt that fully useful.

Agreed, when it is fully linked. However, the +30% on damage will help, because that will be increased by the linkers.