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Medic and Engineer inf weapons are too powerful  XML
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Poll
How should the Medic and Engineer weapons be reduced?
Reduce damage against monsters by 33%, remove berzerk from affecting these weapons. 41% [ 7 ]
Reduce damage against monsters by 50%, give option to purchase resupply lvl 1 24% [ 4 ]
Reduce damage against monsters by 66%, give option to buy resupply lvl 2 6% [ 1 ]
Change healing/engineer weapon to be a special link like gun that does no enemy damage. 12% [ 2 ]
Infinite weapons should be self resupplying instead of truly infinite. 18% [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 17
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TheDruidXpawX

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Greetings everyone. The simple fact of the matter is that medics and engineers are playing more like an adrenaline master or a weapons master on account of their weaponry. This was never the intent for these classes.

Sorry, but it was never the plan for these classes to be able to earn a third of a level in XP with weapons intended for something else. Not even the AM maxed out with a vorpal 11 shock and an energy 4 mini can reliably accomplish this feat.

Something few would have visibility into is how the sheer number of inf links being discharged at this rate is one of the primary causes of network lag. The link gun is the very reason we have weapon speed capped where it is.

I am sorry to those of you that have been using this tactic to earn XP. This has to change and it is going to change.

I'm taking this poll not as a vote but to measure of how strongly people people feel about this problem.


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Jefe

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I think resupply is very much needed for medics and especially engineers, and is one of the reasons they rely so heavily on their class weapons, not even taking in account the power of the enchantments.

Here is one other option that you may or may not have considered: altering the primary fire of the engineer's link gun into a different type of weapon fire, something more network friendly? Medics could be similar, starting out with a unique weapon rather than using an artifact to convert a weapon.

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Wail

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I don't feel this is a problem whatsoever. These classes are already severely disadvantaged in this respect by their class choice.

If I had to suggest something I would say:

-Remove the infinite property from these weapons
-Remove all infinite weapons IMO, replace with weapons that Resupply themselves (ie, a Link Gun of Resupply 4 will regenerate its ammo per Resupply 4, which could stack up to Resupply 8 total for that weapon if you already had Resupply from your class).
-Give Medic / Engineer weapons built in level of Resupply (Might want to consider varying rates based on weapon as a Link Gun or Minigun discharges ammo at a rate much higher than a Flak/Mine/RL).
-Medic weapons gain ammo when used to heal someone, Engineer weapons gain ammo when used to heal someone or sentinels/vehicles/turrets.
-Give Medics and Engineers Resupply X

End result as I see it:


Medics / Engineers can use other weapons effectively, but ammo management does come into play.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so no more spamming with infinite for anyone.
Medic and Engineer weapons are effectively infinite when used "for their intended purpose," and otherwise have some level of Resupply that makes them reliable to use but not something you're going to want to toggle on and leave on the entire match (as it is now).
emetakleze

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Personally, I would make the inf weapon that is made do no monster damage what so ever. I'm sure I will be shot down for that but those weapons are for one purpose only when they are made, to heal or energize. I say nix all damage to monsters with that weapon, give option for resupply 2 for other weps in your arsenal that you can pick up. Perhapse increase the xp fractionaly for the dedicated weapon (for healing or energizing), but that would be it.

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Hobo_Joe

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I actually would agree with Eme, and yes I admit that I'm one to play them like weapons masters for the most part.

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(DC)DEMONSLAYER

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Hobo_Joe wrote:
I actually would agree with Eme, and yes I admit that I'm one to play them like weapons masters for the most part. 


Ditto..........However, the medic has to obtain a minimum of 10 adren to convert his ordinary weapon to a medic weapon. How is the player gonna get the adren if he cannot kill?

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emetakleze

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(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

Hobo_Joe wrote:
I actually would agree with Eme, and yes I admit that I'm one to play them like weapons masters for the most part. 


Ditto..........However, the medic has to obtain a minimum of 10 adren to convert his ordinary weapon to a medic weapon. How is the player gonna get the adren if he cannot kill? 


No, they can kill, with any weapon they pick up or get from a comrade, they just won't be able to kill with whichever weapon they transform into a healing inf weapon.

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Wail

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(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

Hobo_Joe wrote:
I actually would agree with Eme, and yes I admit that I'm one to play them like weapons masters for the most part. 


Ditto..........However, the medic has to obtain a minimum of 10 adren to convert his ordinary weapon to a medic weapon. How is the player gonna get the adren if he cannot kill? 


You could edit Loaded Healing so Medics gain 10 Adren at spawn.



Thing I find troubling that is unaddressed thus far by people advocating for no damage class weapons is -- How does this interact with the weapons in UT2004? The Link Gun, is, for example, the highest DPS weapon in the game - Are you going to deny the Engineer from ever using this weapon [the Link Gun] just because he spawns with an Engineer class weapon?

(As an aside: I would hope that any reduction in damage for the Engineer link would also allow the secondary beam to be lengthened - The explanation I've always received when discussing the stubby Engineer Link was that this fire mode would be overpowered offensively with a normal link beam length.)

I mean, the Engineer weapon is already an inferior weapon: It receives no damage bonus, cannot be maxed, or traded. The only inherent value it has as a killing weapon is the same value that every other class can get (and more) by using an Infinite +0 Link gun.

Medics have it a little easier because they can choose which weapon they would like to use, but since the ideal healing weapon has the highest DPS this again is problematic in the sense of denying the class the ability to utilize certain weapons at all. Since the Medic class actually has the ability to choose which weapon they'd like to use, I suspect the side effect of this will be a stealth nerf to healing ability, as Medics will choose non-favored weapons like the Bio Rifle to turn into their Medic weapons so they can still retain the option of using Flak/RL for dealing damage.

And again, similarly, I am not sure why the Medic weapon is considered "overpowered" at all. The Medic weapon is inferior to even a Infinite +2 in damage potential, and WMs and AMs who have Resupply 4 and Healing Flak/RL/Mine Layers are virtually indistinguishable from Medics (the only thing WMs/AMs sacrifice being the inability to benefit other players with +150 health, whereas Medics sacrifice every other weapon in their arsenal, amongst other things).
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TheDruidXpawX wrote:
Not even the AM maxed out with a vorpal 11 shock and an energy 4 mini can reliably accomplish this feat. 


I don't know about that, elite seems to do best with his AM. And i don't think the medic and eng weapons are too strong, in fact i would say they make the user completely dependent on the one weapon, and it really prevents them from using stronger weapons, and that is enough of a limit. In fact i would say the link gun sucks for all but the largest of monsters as the bullets travel slow and make it difficult to hit.

The engineers don't get high scores because of their link, the link sucks, the bullets travel slow and it has no splash making it difficult to use except on larger monsters, the high scores from engineers that you see is because they spawn multiple high powered turrets that kill faster than any vehicle or weapon.

The medics need an infinite weapon with splash, they can't get decent XP by healing (people don't get hurt enough), and the pets help but they don't give the user something to do, a medic needs to shoot monsters and they need a method to heal themselves, and infinite flak or rocket stuck to only +1 limits them to fighting in close quarters, a WM has a much much higher DB, and a AM has enough adren to make the rod actually useful all the time. (and for me only about 60% of my XP comes from my medic weapon, the rest is from my pets).

I don't think either should be changed, WM gets to actually use a P6-flak with a DB of 160, medics are stuck with a flak+1 and a DB of 80, that is a huge advantage for WM.
TheDruidXpawX

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I like the ideas about these weapons being some sort of separate weapon that doesn't do damage to unfriendlies. Some sort of specialized link gun. To that end, maybe you could even pick up a normal link while carrying these weapons.

I want to make this clear as I can. The question is not whether or not this is a problem. It's a problem. I've been watching it in game for a week now. I've been watching the scores of the medics and engineers that play this way. It's quite clear that it's a problem.

What I'm looking for here is to give the players a voice about how it could be changed. The options I came up with after talking to some of the other admins and also with Szlat are some solutions.


I've also made an inf link with my AM. I've run berserk and trip damage. It's impressive... of course, I had to spend about 5 games to get one of these guns made. To that end, INF link may have to end as well.

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cribbage

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The simple fact of the matter is that medics and engineers are playing more like an adrenaline master or a weapons master on account of their weaponry. This was never the intent for these classes.

Sorry, but it was never the plan for these classes to be able to earn a third of a level in XP with weapons intended for something else.

I am sorry to those of you that have been using this tactic to earn XP. This has to change and it is going to change. 



Sounds like nothing I say will matter, but here's what I think anyhow.

As a medic, I have been using this tactic to earn XP. I depend on the infinite medic weapon (usually a splash) to heal myself and to kill monsters. I know that there are a handful of players able to do this and earn more than a third of a level on a map. Please don't watch this small group of players and kill a class based on that observation.

It seems like the intent of the medic must have been to be a support role. Most smart medics know that healing teammates nets a ton of XP, but most experienced medics also know that this can be very difficult in the heat of battle, so healing usually is most easily done between waves. Also, if there are multiple medics on, the XP thins out. This leaves killing monsters the best way to gain XP during waves.

If there is no infinite medic weapon, or a medic weapon with reduced damage to monsters, than it seems like a medic will simply become a crippled weapons master.

If a medic cannot earn XP with the medic weapon by killing monsters, I think you will find very few people choosing to play a medic. The logic of taking away the medic weapon to prevent the medic from playing like a weapons master, which in turn forces the medic to play more like a weapons master is tenuous at best.

Depending on the changes, I'll probably retire from playing my medic, and since it's the only character I really care to play, I may retire from DC. This would be sad since I very much appreciate the community here and the safety for my kids to play here.



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TheDruidXpawX

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cribbage wrote:
I depend on the infinite medic weapon (usually a splash) to heal myself 
I wouldn't dream of taking away the ability to heal yourself. It may just look a bit different.

cribbage wrote:
and to kill monsters. 
hence the change to allow you to buy resupply

cribbage wrote:
If there is no infinite medic weapon, or a medic weapon with reduced damage to monsters, than it seems like a medic will simply become a crippled weapons master. 
My concern is that right now, the medic is just a superior version of the weapons master.

cribbage wrote:
Depending on the changes, I'll probably retire from playing my medic, and since it's the only character I really care to play, I may retire from DC. This would be sad since I very much appreciate the community here and the safety for my kids to play here. 
We wouldn't dream of crippling these classes that we've spent so many hours writing code, testing, balancing, and debugging.

Please give us the benefit of the doubt, and at least see where this is going before deciding to retire from DC. Changes like this were exactly how the Adrenaline Master was split from the Weapons Master 5 or so years ago.

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Ghost

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cribbage wrote:


As a medic, I have been using this tactic to earn XP... Most smart medics know that healing teammates nets a ton of XP, but most experienced medics also know that this can be very difficult in the heat of battle, so healing usually is most easily done between waves. Also, if there are multiple medics on, the XP thins out. This leaves killing monsters the best way to gain XP during waves.

If there is no infinite medic weapon, or a medic weapon with reduced damage to monsters, than it seems like a medic will simply become a crippled weapons master.
 


I admire Cribbage because he's been able to combine his WM skills to kill monsters and get a good score WHILE making sure his teammates are properly healed. Hats off to you Crib.

I too use Crib's tactic, I like to play aggressive when and while I can. I stopped playing my medic long time ago because I found it very weak compared to my WM and AM. It can survive longer but almost impossible to kill anything if you're a high lvl player and the only one standing. I like being out there killing stuff. Hate being confined in a corner like the engineer class, another class I don't play often anymore.

I'd be really disappointed if either class gets nerfed. Medics don't and can't behave and score like a wm. Except for Elite who is a special case.
Engineers are not strong unless they team up in groups of 4 or more. By themselves, they're pretty weak.




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edman007



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TheDruidXpawX wrote:
I wouldn't dream of taking away the ability to heal yourself. It may just look a bit different. 


Well it sounds like you are doing that, a WM has Vamp, they can get close to monsters and fight while getting healed, an AM has the rod and can just spend their time dodging bullets letting the rod do most of the work, a Eng can get in a vehicle or base to protect themselves. Medics survive off the splash damage of the rocket or flak hitting monsters. If you take away the infinite medic weapon from a medic you take away their ability to heal in battle, there is no other way to quickly heal in all situations.

Right now every class has their own weapon, WM has everything and a high DB, Eng has all sorts of turrets, and AM has an extra effective rod. A medic is a crippled WM with an inf weapon, just because they use that weapon to kill monsters instead of healing does not make them too powerful, right now the medic weapon is the only weapon they have.

I however do not think the inf weapons are too powerful, I think that the high XP is because high level medics always have three pets, they are always playing as a team of 4, it not only gives them more kills but it makes it much easier to get double/multi-kills, and that nets a lot of XP.

If you need to take something away from medics give everyone else pets, medics seem to get them only because they don't fit anywhere else, and that would boost all other classes a bit to even it out (though it may create an issue with too many pets on the server). But taking away the medic weapon effectively takes away a medics ability to fight, every class has a unique type of weapon, and you would be removing that from the medic. And I think the way the monsters level up at the high waves when there are only high level players alive really limit medics who will always find their inf medic weapon to be junk and are unable to switch to anything else due to a number of factors like the resupply being limited.
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My concern is that you may have based your decision on watching Elite, Hobo, and a few others play the Medic and Engineer. These guys will excel at whatever limitations are thrown at them and still school everyone on the map -- making any changes for them moot, while completely altering the dynamic for everyone else.

To be frank, I chose the medic as my main character because I just dont have the skill set to play a weapons or adren master: switching all those weapons on the fly, managing ammo, translocating back and forth all over the map, hotkeying artifact combos, etc. I've watched them too and just shake my head wondering how they do it.

The medic, then, was perfect for me - just find the flak and no more worries. Throw out some brutes as extra targets and mostly stick to one area. Find the "base" and heal folks up periodically. Now it seems my whole style of play will have to change.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I look forward to seeing where I can spend my 600+ points.

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