Are Monster Masters underpowered?

Hello all!

I know a new member probably shouldn't start with opening a new thread in his first post,

ops: but I didn't find a proper thread to put these in. I hope you forgive me.
(Actually I'm not that new, I've been here since DruidsRPG 1.73, only didn't post)

Recently I've been trying out the monster/medic master class, for a change, and found it seriously underpowered to the others. I was mainly trying to be a summoner, and only a slight healer.

Here are my thoghts:

This class has to spend many points on many diverse skills to even summon worthwhile monsters, and are quite limited.
They have so many relics, that they are not able to pick up any, unless I set it to unlimited relics per player. I think the class specific relics shouldn't count towards the pickup limit (also for AM's 3 spec relics).
Adrenaline is scarce for them (only regen plus kills/pills, no surge/leech) and the summons are quite adrenaline hungry. It's easier to get adrenaline in invasion, but in other gametypes it's quite hard (not to mention onslaught, where you can only get it from kills, and killing with this class is quite hard). Also these monster points were confusing at first, but then I understood how it _should_ work. But it does not IMHO. First they have to purchase the points, the loaded monsters, and build up adrenaline. That take quite some time. Then they hit the 3 max monsters limit ?! WHY? I don't think it's a performance issue, so why can't I have 10 mantas, if I'm stupid enough to summon them. And monsters are quite expensive in monster points too.
I was hoping that the summoned monsters at least inherit the stats of their master like in the original RPG, but since they can get health upgrade, I don't think that is the case. This makes them very inferior. I mean invasion monsters and other players get stronger with experience, and my monster remain the same crappy ones.
Also a quite painful issue: death.
All of my summoned monsters die when I die. This is ridiculous. Even a weapon master is able to summon a better monster than me this way, since monsters summoned by the 'normal' relic stay after the masters death. But a MM is not even able to pick that relic up

I can understand why it's an issue in invasion, that your monster shouldn't be around after your death, but that makes MM a totally useless character in other gametypes, and summonig a waste of (rare) adrenaline.
Not to mention, that every time I die, the list of relics gets reset, and I have to browse through pages on useless relics to get the one I want. It would be nice to save the last used relic, and return to it after respawn.

I also seem to get a weird issue, when my displayed monster points is totally wrong.

Sometimes the monster points usage meter, ang also the relic's description disappears altogether, so I can only guess, what I'm about to summon...

Please tell me that I'm doing something wrong, because the way I see it, the MM class is very limited in every single aspect I can think of ATM (more skills to upgrade, less adrenaline, weak and limited summons, clumsy interface...).

What I'd change, if i had any knowledge of utscript:

- not count class spec relics toward pickup limit
- monsters shouldn't die on master's death (maybe only in INV)
- unlimited summoned monsters (they are limited by monster points anyway)
- leave the whole adrenaline thing out of the summoning, only summon from monster points (adrenaline AND monster points is an overkill, also MMs have the least adrenaline, and they could use it more wisely on combos or other relics)
- save last used relic on death and switch back to it on respawn

I think even with all that MMs sould still not be strong players, since the mosters they summon aren't that tough, but they would make a formidable defense.
I'm worried if it's just me getting these, since the 2.00 has been around for a while, and nobody seemed to mention any of these, but in that case, please enlighten me, what am I doing wrong?

Szappy

Szappy wrote:

- not count class spec relics toward pickup limit

Not easy to do (at least not without some heavy extension of Mysterial's base RPGArtifact class, which we may do for some of our custom artifacts - thing is, this becomes a very undesirable thing when you start talking about changing artifacts that we use without change from Mysterial's mod). Besides, if you've been reading the Development forum at all, you'll notice that we're working on something that, once we fix it (Pinata), Dru plans to remove pickup limits on artifacts.

Szappy wrote:

- monsters shouldn't die on master's death (maybe only in INV)

If I was someone's slave and they died, I'd wander off. I don't think you should be able to get XP when you're dead (Poison being the only exception where that might happen now).

Szappy wrote:

- unlimited summoned monsters (they are limited by monster points anyway)

This is a CPU issue. Get too many summoners on at the same time summoning all sorts of relatively useless but cheap monsters, and the server would start lagging a bit. Play a large VINV match and get stuck with a bunch of titans on - same principle. Even with the new kick-butt server we have now, the process is not threaded, so one single processor has to track all that stuff itself. Granted, Dru's removed bunnies and cows, but I don't want some wacko coming on and summoning a bunch of pupae.

Szappy wrote:

- leave the whole adrenaline thing out of the summoning, only summon from monster points (adrenaline AND monster points is an overkill, also MMs have the least adrenaline, and they could use it more wisely on combos or other relics)

My M/MM has no problem with Adren *unless* I have a Triple or Globe. Also, you say "no leech/surge" but M/MM's do get Drip. Even drip 1 means that, even if you fail to kill anything, by the end of wave 1 you should be able to make a Medic Weapon at the very least. Then you'll have unlimited ammo and the ability (if you find a "splashable" weapon) to heal yourself. And to be honest, M/MM's don't have the "least" adrenaline. They get adrenaline in the same method as a Weapons Master would, and also get the benefit of Drip, which WM's do not.

Szappy wrote:

- save last used relic on death and switch back to it on respawn

Not so sure that this is easy to do; particularly given the way the summoning artifacts are done. We're having enough trouble figuring out exactly why artifacts like to switch when you Ghost or guide a deemer.

The key to balance on this server is the amount of XP gained over time, *not* score. And I must tell you that as a *healing* M/MM with some monster summoning skills, my 90ish level M/MM gets the same as or more XP usually than my 117th WM. So I would suggest that your observations are probably due to the path you've chosen, rather than the weakness in the class itself. IOW, you're playing your M/MM much like people who choose to play AMs (vs WMs) do - you chose a more difficult path.

When you get to the point of being able to summon a titan, you probably won't be complaining. Yes, I know that takes a while - but when you stop to think just how cheap advancing levels in MS and MP are, it isn't so bad.

Just out of curiosity, what level is your M/MM? You left that out of your post; unless you're up in the 60's - 80's, you're likely to feel a bit weak compared to other players, I'd say. Maxing some key stats will help you feel a bit stronger, as will getting your monsters skill and health bonuses.

Szappy wrote:

I also seem to get a weird issue, when my displayed monster points is totally wrong.

See http://www.disastrousconsequences.com/dcforum/posts/list/2273.page

There's a known bug that, while it was happening more often originally, it happens less now, but still occurs. The sequence of events that seems to trigger it this:

1. Someone (M/MM or not) spectates someone else.
2. "Spectated" summons a monster (either as an M/MM, or using a Summoning Charm)
3. The spectator spawns. When they spawn, they will have the Monster Points Indicator of the person they specated - having no indicator at all if the specated person was not an M/MM.

Similar bugs have also been witnessed - the MP indicator shows the proper "maximum" number of MPs, but does not show the usage of the MPs properly.

The key here is that if you think it's bad now, you should have seen it before 200 was released (the bug occurred "more" and "for more reasons". Dru hasn't been able to figure out where the remaining bugs are actually occuring in the code (or, better stated, Dru does not see in the code where the bug could occur). Not that I'm a better coder than Dru, but I haven't looked at this yet. I'm an "annoyance" fixer when it comes to my primary goal for what I poke my nose into, and this isn't really high on my list of annoyances yet. Besides, it involves a lot of "Client vs Server" specific code (IE, it involves replication) and that stuff gives me a headache.

Also, the relic descriptions disappearing may have something to do with the font size - I don't know. It only seems to happen with the Monster Summoning relics and appears to occur and fix itself at random. It may also have to do with the fact that the M/MM MS artifacts are built mostly from the same class (IE, you have several instances of an identical class, only with different values set for certain variables). Again, I haven't been playing my M/MM that much so this annoyance hasn't gotten to the point to where I'd stick my nose in it yet. (Right now I'm focusing on issues that aren't always specific to one class, or class specific issues that result in all players being impacted regardless of class, or long standing annoyances in the older classes.)

Your message really could be split up into two different topics: M/MM Weaknesses, and M/MM Bugs. The bugs we know about and will get to some day. The Weaknesses are subject to opinion and debate.

So, as far as the Weaknesses are concerned, let the debates begin.

BotFodder wrote:

Just out of curiosity, what level is your M/MM? You left that out of your post; unless you're up in the 60's - 80's, you're likely to feel a bit weak compared to other players, I'd say. Maxing some key stats will help you feel a bit stronger, as will getting your monsters skill and health bonuses.

The screen shots indicate level 42.
However, looking at the stats purchased indicates something well in excess of 7 points per level - probably more like 20. So it ought to be performing like a DC level 100 or so player.
Monster health bonus level 5 and intelligence 7.

Szlat wrote:

The screen shots indicate level 42.
However, looking at the stats purchased indicates something well in excess of 7 points per level - probably more like 20. So it ought to be performing like a DC level 100 or so player.
Monster health bonus level 5 and intelligence 7.

Um. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the game base monster strength/level both on the difficulty set as well as the number of points awarded per level?

I'd be willing to bet that on a server with 20 points awarded per level, *any* level 42 player, regardless of stats (unless certain stat caps are moved higher to balance it out and the player has purchased some of those) the monsters may seem a little tough.

Perhaps M/MMs are underpowered, if you're running your server with settings different from the DC server. In that case, you might want to seriously consider extending Dru's mod or looking at the code for INI configuration options that might help balance the class on your server.

Most of the talk in these forums about the M/MM class have been about the Medic side of things. It makes a nice change for someone to investigate and feedback on how well the monster side of things is working.

If someone has invested over 350 points into the monster side of the class, then they ought to be getting reasonable returns. By comparsion, that many points would buy you LW5 and vampire lvl 8 - which make a big difference. Not many people on DC have spent 350 points on pets yet in order to give us comparable feedback.

There are things that can be tweaked if we think it necessary. We could:

change the point costs for the skills to give better value for money

Modify the monsters used for pets to have a higher base health, speed and damage

We could modify the friendlymonstercontroller to make them more aggressive.

Add extra skills that would for example give health drip to the pets
... and loads of other options.

However, there are lots of other factors that affect the balance of the classes. Medics for example score better when there are fewer of them. So, in order to get a proper balanced view, I wonder if we could do with some test players setting up on DC so we can compare how effective different abilities are, in order to get the costs and power balanced. Have a level 100 WM, 100 AM, 100 Medic and 100 MM, and see how they all perform? But get someone independent like 320 or Fro to test. Just a thought.

BotFodder wrote:

Um. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the game base monster strength/level both on the difficulty set as well as the number of points awarded per level?

I'd be willing to bet that on a server with 20 points awarded per level, *any* level 42 player, regardless of stats (unless certain stat caps are moved higher to balance it out and the player has purchased some of those) the monsters may seem a little tough.

Agreed. It also depends on what they have the InvasionAutoAdjustFactor set to. If they have it set to 0.1 or something it will still be ok.

Thank you for the repies, and the insights. I'll try to answer all questions, and give my points:

If I was someone's slave and they died, I'd wander off. I don't think you should be able to get XP when you're dead (Poison being the only exception where that might happen now).

That's true, but this creates a great imbalance with the summoning charm. More on this later...

This is a CPU issue. Get too many summoners on at the same time ...

You certainly have a point there, that I didn't consider. OTOH it's not likely that there will be many MMs who waste their points summoning swarms of useless monsters, and if there were, their lifespan wouldn't be very long... What i was actually tryin was to summon some higher level monsters (metal skaarj in my case) and use that excess monster points for two pupaes. And to my surprise, I wasn't able to.

And to be honest, M/MM's don't have the "least" adrenaline. They get adrenaline in the same method as a Weapons Master would, and also get the benefit of Drip, which WM's do not.

Ok, I wasn't as observans, as I should have been

ops: (I was under the impression, that WM gets surge).
But my point still stands, because adrenaline is not really needed for WMs. Sure it helps, but the don't rely on it. AMs have plenty of it, and the need it too. But the main skill of MMs also relies on adrenaline, and there is not really enough for summons, and using relics too (ok-ok, if you don't die, and manage to summon some powerful monsters, there is probably enough). My monsters OTOH constantly die on me, and are quite powerless against others, not to mention the players, who kill them outright.

Or take the RPG aspect of this. A WM is like a fighter, he can go in for the kill outright. AM is like a mage, he has to build up magic, then wreak havoc. MM now also has to build up his magic, only *much* slower to use his class skills, which are not as powerful*** as the AM's. And an AM's magic weapon is permanent, while a monster can get killed (and it *will* get killed, especially on lower levels). My suggestion, to summon solely from monster points could balance this out, that a MM could constantly have his minions with him, change them around, adopting to the situation. Much more versatile this way. Not to mention, that you don't get adrenaline back from unsummon, so unsummoning is also adr waste.
***I'm goint to get hammered for this, so let me explain. A +6 vampire, but even a +4 damage weapon is surely to get you more experience, than a metal skaarj.

On overall, there are 3 different restrictions placed on summoners: adrenaline, monster points, and the 3 summon limit.
Considering, that all other classes have 'only' have to find a summoning relic, and they probably have better adrenaline by that time, it's a bit too hindering. Not to mention, that monsters summoned by the charm DO stay around after your death. Maybe they even inherit their master's properties, like they used to in the original RPG? Could someone check this? If that is the case, a summonner is *way* better off just finding a charm anyway. Oh wait, then he doesn't even have to be a summoner...
And I'm NOT proposing, that the 'charmed' monsters should also die on masters death

Also another rather important (IMO) side of this, is that you're only considering the Invasion game type. It's true that most of my issues do not seem that large isssue, since you die quite rarely. But I had the impression, that DruidsRPG wasn't designed solely for INV. At least I'm using it for most gametypes, and all the other classes are quite formidable, just not the Monster master.
Just imagine the lifespan in a CTF game, or in ONS. An average TTL is under 1 minute in those. As a MM it doesn't worth it to summon anything, since you'll die the next corner, and it was just a waste of precious adrenaline. And adrenaline IS scarce, especially in ONS (no pills) for MMs. This could also be solved by summoning from MPs BTW.

As for these:

The screen shots indicate level 42.
However, looking at the stats purchased indicates something well in excess of 7 points per level - probably more like 20. So it ought to be performing like a DC level 100 or so player.

Agreed. It also depends on what they have the InvasionAutoAdjustFactor set to. If they have it set to 0.1 or something it will still be ok.

Man, you're good. From two shots you deduced the settings perfecly. It's set to 20 points/level and 0.1 monster adjust. You must really know the ins-and-outs of this mod

Szappy

As you suggested I'm splitting up my post for MM bugs. If this part of the debate should go in another thread, it's easier to move it over this way too.

There's a known bug that, while it was happening more often originally, it happens less now, but still occurs. The sequence of events that seems to trigger it this:

1. Someone (M/MM or not) spectates someone else.
2. "Spectated" summons a monster (either as an M/MM, or using a Summoning Charm)
3. The spectator spawns. When they spawn, they will have the Monster Points Indicator of the person they specated - having no indicator at all if the specated person was not an M/MM.

None of this happened, it was my first life, I didn't die, so I couldn't have spectated anyone. Also, it was constantly changing through the game. Sometimes visible, sometimes not.

BUT! today I made an interesting discovery. I made a test with 2 bots, and actually the 0/2 monster points (while I have 20) on the first shot is not mine! It's for the bot 'Annika'. today I made sore of this. The MP indicator changed as she summoned a pupae, and dropped back to zero in the instant the pupae died ("Annika's SkaarjPupae is OUT"). I hope this helps a bit in debugging this.
I might try playing a test game, and recording it all, to analyze it frame by frame. Would that help?

Szappy wrote:

Also another rather important (IMO) side of this, is that you're only considering the Invasion game type. It's true that most of my issues do not seem that large isssue, since you die quite rarely. But I had the impression, that DruidsRPG wasn't designed solely for INV. At least I'm using it for most gametypes, and all the other classes are quite formidable, just not the Monster master.

Druid will have to speak on this to provide the "fact". I can only provide the opinion:

DruidsRPG is coded mainly for the DC server. As implemented, you get little to no XP (comparatively) for activities in gametypes other than (V)INV. PvP kills result in only 1 XP. Period, no XP from inflicting damage, as it is with monsters in INV. Hence, DC is mainly an INV server.

Additionally, I would say the weakest class in PvP is probably Adrenaline Master. I would theorize that Surge won't amount to much (as I doubt you get much adren for killing a player - 1 point maybe? Becomes a whole whoppin' 2 with Surge). That leaves Drip (which both M/MMs and AMs get). Most if not all of the artifacts an AM use require more adren than the Medic Weapon Maker. I'm not saying M/MM's don't suffer as well, but I would say that when it comes to PvP, WM rules. The other two do not; and M/MMs have it only slightly better than AMs.

Once a M/MM makes a medic weapon capable of splash damage, they can easily heal themselves, and WMs get Vamp. AMs get nothing. No way short of health pickups, booster, or a friendly medic to get health back. The ability (or lack thereof) to somehow get health back from "extrordinary means" is equally impactful across all gametypes. And during a recent ONS map, Fro as his Medic was a pain in the ... you know. The only way to dispatch him was run him over with a Manta when he wasn't looking.

So my opinion would be that, in the strictest sense, you are right: DruidsRPG is not solely coded for INV. But I would say it is primarily coded for INV, with PvP based code present more as an after effect of the fact that in an INV game, the Monsters are considered to be "on the other team" and at a basic level, both are treated mostly the same by the engine. Really, you could almost view the Monsters as bots that spawn with their own special weapons.

On the other hand, DruidsRPG is just an extension to Mysterial's UT2004RPG mutator, and I get the feeling that Mysterial was probably more game neutral in his code than Dru was, though only Dru (and Mysterial collectively) would be able to answer that for sure ...

So opening the discussion to other gametypes - well, classes are DruidsRPG specific, and DruidsRPG appears to me to be coded mainly for INV. If you're unhappy with how the classes balance in a PvP game on your own server, I'm sure Dru would have no problem with you coding your own extensions to the game to change whatever values you wish to change. As for getting your changes into the DruidsRPG code, you can always attach patches to a forum message, and if Dru sees it, he might add it to his list.

I get the feeling though that inspite of the recent influx of developers (if Slzat, myself, and maybe Moof could be considered an influx), Dru still has a long list of things he'd like to work on ...

Finally, you've got to admit that you've picked the more difficult of the two paths when it comes to M/MM play style. As currently implemented, the Medic aspect of the M/MM is the easy path to getting a character established and making XP quickly, and then they can play with Monsters later. Going monsters first? Ew ... personally, as implemented on DC, I see no issues with *costs* of skills - they are relatively cheap but then there are more requirements and levels to them than other classes.

I would suggest that, rather than changing any of the current costs for skills or adren requirements for monsters, what an M/MM could use infinitely more is a bump to the base monster health and skill. But again, that's from an "INV only" point of view. Personally, I have a strong ... "dispreference" ... for non-INV games. I like my XP.

As for your "bugs" post - I did mean that your "bugs" post should be a totally separate thread from the debate thread ...

Szappy wrote:

On overall, there are 3 different restrictions placed on summoners: adrenaline, monster points, and the 3 summon limit.
Considering, that all other classes have 'only' have to find a summoning relic, and they probably have better adrenaline by that time, it's a bit too hindering.

I haven't tried it, but it may be possible to put something like
Code:

 [DruidsRPG200.AbilityLoadedMonsters]
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Pupae",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.SkaarjPupae',Adrenaline=15,MonsterPoints=1,Level=1)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Manta",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.Manta',Adrenaline=20,MonsterPoints=2,Level=2)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Krall",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.Krall',Adrenaline=25,MonsterPoints=3,Level=3)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="EliteKrall",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.EliteKrall',Adrenaline=30,MonsterPoints=4,Level=4)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Gasbag",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.Gasbag',Adrenaline=35,MonsterPoints=5,Level=5)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Slith",Monster=Class'satoreMonsterPackv120.SMPSlith',Adrenaline=40,MonsterPoints=6,Level=6)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Mercenary",Monster=Class'satoreMonsterPackv120.SMPMercenary',Adrenaline=45,MonsterPoints=7,Level=7)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Brute",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.Brute',Adrenaline=50,MonsterPoints=8,Level=8)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="MercenaryElite",Monster=Class'satoreMonsterPackv120.SMPMercenaryElite',Adrenaline=55,MonsterPoints=9,Level=9)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Skaarj",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.Skaarj',Adrenaline=60,MonsterPoints=10,Level=10)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Behemoth",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.Behemoth',Adrenaline=65,MonsterPoints=11,Level=11)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="IceSkaarj",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.IceSkaarj',Adrenaline=70,MonsterPoints=12,Level=12)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="FireSkaarj",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.FireSkaarj',Adrenaline=75,MonsterPoints=13,Level=13)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="MetalSkaarj",Monster=Class'satoreMonsterPackv120.SMPMetalSkaarj',Adrenaline=80,MonsterPoints=14,Level=14)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="WarLord",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.WarLord',Adrenaline=100,MonsterPoints=15,Level=15)

in your UT2004RPG.ini file. You can decide what monsters you want to be available, and how much adrenaline each one should cost.

I do not know what list Druid has got for DC.

The default INI provided by Druid:
Code:

 [DruidsRPG200.AbilityLoadedMonsters]
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Pupae",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.SkaarjPupae',Adrenaline=15,MonsterPoints=2,Level=2)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Manta",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.Manta',Adrenaline=20,MonsterPoints=3,Level=2)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Krall",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.Krall',Adrenaline=30,MonsterPoints=3,Level=3)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Devil Fish",Monster=Class'satoreMonsterPackv120.SMPDevilFish',Adrenaline=45,MonsterPoints=3,Level=3)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Razor Fly",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.Razorfly',Adrenaline=30,MonsterPoints=3,Level=3)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Elite Krall",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.EliteKrall',Adrenaline=35,MonsterPoints=4,Level=4)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Gasbag",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.Gasbag',Adrenaline=40,MonsterPoints=5,Level=5)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Skaarj Trooper",Monster=Class'satoreMonsterPackv120.SMPSkaarjTrooper',Adrenaline=50,MonsterPoints=5,Level=10)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Brute",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.Brute',Adrenaline=50,MonsterPoints=6,Level=6)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Metal Skaarj",Monster=Class'satoreMonsterPackv120.SMPMetalSkaarj',Adrenaline=55,MonsterPoints=8,Level=6)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Skaarj",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.Skaarj',Adrenaline=40,MonsterPoints=5,Level=7)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Skaarj Sniper",Monster=Class'satoreMonsterPackv120.SMPSkaarjSniper',Adrenaline=80,MonsterPoints=7,Level=12)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Behemoth",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.Behemoth',Adrenaline=70,MonsterPoints=7,Level=8)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Giant Razor Fly",Monster=Class'satoreMonsterPackv120.SMPGiantRazorFly',Adrenaline=75,MonsterPoints=7,Level=8)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Ice Skaarj",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.IceSkaarj',Adrenaline=60,MonsterPoints=7,Level=9)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Mercenary",Monster=Class'satoreMonsterPackv120.SMPMercenary',Adrenaline=40,MonsterPoints=6,Level=5)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Fire Skaarj",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.FireSkaarj',Adrenaline=70,MonsterPoints=7,Level=11)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Slith",Monster=Class'satoreMonsterPackv120.SMPSlith',Adrenaline=75,MonsterPoints=7,Level=11)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Elite Mercenary",Monster=Class'satoreMonsterPackv120.SMPMercenaryElite',Adrenaline=60,MonsterPoints=7,Level=8)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="WarLord",Monster=Class'SkaarjPack.WarLord',Adrenaline=100,MonsterPoints=13,Level=14)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Titan",Monster=Class'satoreMonsterPackv120.SMPTitan',Adrenaline=100,MonsterPoints=15,Level=15)
 MonsterConfigs=(FriendlyName="Stone Titan",Monster=Class'satoreMonsterPackv120.SMPStoneTitan',Adrenaline=100,MonsterPoints=15,Level=15)

You could possibly make "Adrenaline=0" for each of the entries. Or if that doesn't work (0 is such an unpredictable number sometimes) make them all "1" (the M/MM would still need 1 adren for each monster it wanted to summon, but, by gosh, an M/MM *should* be able to get 1 or 2 adren).

I also have a sneaking suspicion that Szlat was headed this way in his post but he might have brainfarted somewhere along the line and forgotten to actually suggest it.

BotFodder wrote:

I also have a sneaking suspicion that Szlat was headed this way in his post but he might have brainfarted somewhere along the line and forgotten to actually suggest it.

Well, it is Friday