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Okinesu

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Joined: 12/19/2004 20:45:34
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Location: San Marcos, TX
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As if I didn't tell everyone about it all of the time, I cut my teeth on Doom and really got into FPS during the Quake years. I've been interested in level design, and I have done some maps on and off since about 2000. I've been thinking about all of the games I've ever played, and all of the FPS multiplayer maps seem to be connected in some way. They all have an underlying feelm regardless of what the environment is. Quake maps are typicall no-frill, concentrating solely on the gameplay. Everything is where it should be, nothing extra is there. In making UT maps, I have it hard to find an underlying current of gameplay. None of the maps feel connected like they do in other games. I feel most maps are just BSP cuts with hundreds of smeshes thrown in. It feels like most maps have no soul to them, just tired, unoriginal, trite arenas.

With that out of the way, I'd like to ask a few questions of everyone who cares to read this:

What do you really like to see in maps? I don't mean things like "good lighting" and "correct cubemaps" but more on the level of "____ themed maps" and "high places to jump from" and the like.

On the flipside, what don't you like to see? For example, I greatly dislike mostly everything about the map DM-TelMecoMex. It feels detached. The designs lack continuity and there are weird smeshes all over the place for no reason.

Am I nuts, or do UT2k4 maps just seem cold and detached?

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Chyster

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Joined: 02/08/2005 20:26:37
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Location: Victoria, TX
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No Oki, I agree with you. The difference is in the objective.

I cut my teeth on the Original Doom, then progressed on through Duke Nukem 3d, Original Quake, Original UT. All of these have a flow because of the objective --> To get from point A to point B and continue on the game 'till ya squish the biggest, badest boss.

In UT2K4 (assault maps are the exception) the objective is different. It is almost like a birthday party in Mexico where one of the common highlights of the party is giving the kids a big stick and letting them whack away on a candy stuffed doll on a rope.

We are pretty much doing the same. Assault maps have different a objective and give "mission flow". DM, CTF, ONS, DOM and BR maps put us all in a big room(s) with a stick.

If at first you don't friccasee, fry, fry a hen.
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emetakleze

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Joined: 01/02/2005 18:15:15
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A big, glowing, vorpal +10 stick!

****"All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."**** -Batty

****On a hot summer night would you offer your throat to the wolf with the red roses?****

***Though I cannot corrupt that which is by nature already corrupt, I can and do change the nature of the corruption***

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Continuum

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Joined: 03/09/2005 05:20:36
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Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
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1. At least two levels of z axis (preferably more but not like ifultower)

2. Static meshes are good but they cant be scattered through the level. A lot of maps are almost impossible to play due to all the random obsticals in the way. If this were CS it would work... but UT does not play like that.

3. Most people say you should have more than 2 ways in/out of each room to prevent bottlenecks or camp traps. For the most part I agree but occasionally I would like to see a more easily defended base.

4. There are to many Egypt maps.

5. What happened to secret areas that had to be found/opened? Almost every game had one on each level and I don't recall any of these in UT2004 (skyboxes don't really count)

6. UT has always seemed to be overly bright compaired to the other fps. I'm not saying it needs to be as dark as DOOM 3 which was way to dark but to me even the teamskins are way to bright all you do is shoot the at the glowing color.

7. Textures could be less noisy or grainy looking. All the brownish red, and blue stone or metal just doesnt look right. Could use more "almost" greyscale textures for rocks and metals. Also a more futuristic "Unreal" look would look good.







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Okinesu

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Joined: 12/19/2004 20:45:34
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Location: San Marcos, TX
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(I'm skipping around here

Conti: The reason that everything is so grainy is because UT2k4 doesn't really use bump mapping. The engine doesn't support it (although some games built on the engine do) so they designers seemed to have overcompensated and made everything look grainy to fake bump mapping. It's really, really easy to do, which explains why it's so overused.

Egypt maps... Yeah, Epic lost it when UT2k3 was being designed. EVERYTHING was Egyptized. Even CTF-Face couldn't escape it.

I love traps and tricks, so my maps try to have some dangerous element in them or puzzles or whatever to get certain items. I hear ya on that.

One of the biggest irritations when making a map is the size difference in everything, the scaling. The guns are HUGE compared to the models and they are getting worse in UT2k7. Also, the smeshes are unreasonably large in comparison to the players. It's understandable, as things need to be tall and gainly so that one can double jump and not bump his noggin, but it's kind of weird making things extra tall just so you can't jump over them.

The lighting has always been messed up. Coronas are terribly overused and ambient lighting is usually never done correctly.

The map that most represents everything I dislike about UT level design is CTF-BridgeOfFate. It's a monster. It seems like it's only about 60% done or so. I commend the designer for sparse smesh usage, but it has no life to it. The pillar halls on either side aren't fleshed out well, the lighting is dismal, the super pickups are in cleaver places, but there is no reason behind their placing. The chasm in the middle looks abandoned; so much could have gone into making it a little scarier. And so on.

Here's a question: Do you enjoy "rat" maps? I am referring to maps like DM-Breakfast2k3, Bedrooms, things like that. Also, what is everyone's favorite map, and why?

-----------------------------------------------------

UT, as a game, seems like an example of what could be done with the Unreal 2 engine. The maps are seldom "unreal." Talk about objectivity, but most maps make me yawn in indifference.

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Pyramidion

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Joined: 02/21/2005 14:31:28
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Well I can't say that I know anything about mapping, but I do know my favorite map. I'm a big fan of UrbanBayRev, I'm not really sure why, but I think it's really fun but on the small side. I like it for its different sections, like inside the buildings at one part, on roof tops, or in the water the next, for it's size it's one of my favs. I'd also have to commend Helmzdeep, it's replicated so well to the movie that I love playing it... So that'd be my second because you can either play in small quarters or out in the open(plus the exploding wall is neat.) I'm also a big fan of the secret parts of levels, I don't really like the warps too much because they can cause telefrags, but it's cool finding random stuff in a place you'd never expect!
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Frag.Stag

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Joined: 01/29/2006 00:46:25
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I'm talking about deathmatch maps, since that's what I'm into.

I don't mind the "rat map" theme so long as the map is fun to play. Too many of them seem to be the product of a new mapper who couldn't think of anything and decided to make his room. I also don't like the huge spaces these maps tend to have. DM-Breakfast2k3 is an example of a good rat map. It conveys the small scale but is still playable.

I agree that the Egypt theme has been done to death. In the words of Serious Sam (who spent the "first encounter" there):
"What? NO! NOT EGYPT!"
I also think the "gritty industrial plant with no discernable purpose" needs to be done away with. permanently.

I'm not terribly particular about themes as long as they're consistent. I haven't seen a lot of urban maps like ONS-Urban. I think it'd be cool to fly a redeemer down the street at someone.

Gameplay-wise, I like tight maps. Give me enough room to get away from shock cores and rockets, but I don't like to be more than a dodge-double-jump away from an exit. I'll make an exception for a good weapon or power-up.
I agree with Chyster: Deathmatch maps are like a big party (I say it's a speed metal mosh pit.) The idea is to give people motivation to run around the map. Put the weapon in one place, and distribute its ammo elsewhere. If a player can camp out in one area without having to worry about running out of HAA (Health, Armor, and Ammo,) then the resources need to be redistributed.
Cliff Bleszinski wrote an article on level design that's worth reading.
I like maps that don't force a play style. Close-combat and mosh pit-er's can grab a flak cannon and go nuts, while the snipers can hang back and "one shot one kill" to their hearts desire, and both styles have a chance at winning.

As for things I don't like...

There's something in maps I call "pretty s***." It's stuff that looks cool, but detracts from gameplay.
Scenario: I'm fighting, realize I'm in over my head, and try to backpedal out of the room while still shooting at the enemy. I hit the wall and strafe towards the door. I hit the "doorframe" and stop moving, and the other guy hammers me with a rocket as I try to step around it.
That "doorframe" is an exampe of "pretty s***."

I don't care much for "gimmick" maps. These are maps that center around some odd mapping trick. It's not so much the gimmick itself as the fact that the rest of the map suffers for it. Two examples of this are in UT'99 with the decompression chamber and health regenerating field. Equally disliked is its close cousin the arena map. Players should not be spawning in full view of every other player on the map.

Am I nuts, or do UT2k4 maps just seem cold and detached? 
Okinesu

Now that you mention it, UT2k4 maps do seem to be devoid of life. However, I think that's true for every multiplayer map, UT or otherwise. It's a consequence of creating environments solely for people to kill each other in.

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ck

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Joined: 01/20/2006 17:28:27
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i haven't done any mapping so not all of this might be/sound correct, but;

I think if you're doing a deathmatch type of map, the backbone of the map should be weapon/armor/health/ammo pick ups. it is obvious that you can't have a good map without these but there deinitely some other tricks.

1. At least two levels of z axis (preferably more but not like ifultower)  


i think this is really important and all the classic good dm maps have this. I think it's one of their main strengths (rankin: 3 lvls around rocket, 2 around flak, 2.5ish around shock etc)

this is UT so large open spaces ae not useful unless they have a specific reason. otherwise, i would rather fight then walk for 30 seconds. every map has (should have) battle spaces and having them evenly distributed would help. what makes a battle space is a crucial pick up in the middle so it's not that hard to do.

no egypt. rat maps are fine if they don't have enourmous open spaces, breakfast is a nice example. i personalyl like urban maps a lot (doesn't have to ruins fo city, just anything urban goes) but that's personal taste. also, the things mentioned before are prbably hard accomplish in an urban map (maybe that's why there so few of them)

super weps/items shuold be in tricky places. i like the 100 shield in deck 17 - it's not really on your way but it's easy to get spotted when you're trying to get to it.. i dont like the one rankin that much because unless you're playing real pros you can pick it up by dropping on it without much hassle.

i don't have a problem with lit maps, it's UT action and not a scary game/movie. while helmzdeep is a good design, i feel weird when I see Malcom and his RL in it.

and lastly, what i don't like: walking in boring open empty spaces (bridge of fate, the hall, the side corridors, the bridge, everything). i don't like dying before i pick up my first wep (bad placement of pick ups). too much visuals doesn't mean a good map but i have noticed that good maps are never visually boring so too much "plainnese" can be problem, too.
320

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Joined: 10/11/2005 21:28:38
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I think 2 - 4 levels of z-axis, max, for invasion. But I would only enjoy 4 levels if the level design were superb.

Either that, or in areas with access to multiple higher levels, only one of those levels has a spawn point in that vicinity. That way, at least experience and map knowledge pays off. Nothing worse that transing all over the place over and over for nothing.

This isn't so much a problem with 10 players, but with 20+, you can trans around at the max rate and only get one or two additional kills for your effort. This is why I don't even touch the tower in Ifull.
Continuum

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320 wrote:


This isn't so much a problem with 10 players, but with 20+, you can trans around at the max rate and only get one or two additional kills for your effort. This is why I don't even touch the tower in Ifull. 


exactly, without a good shock or sniper/lightning its hard to get close enough to kill anything on the ground though. And there is always a monster in the pool up top or underneath




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Metal_Dragune


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I like mapes where there is a lot of secrets and hidy-holes

also i like mapes where there are trap you can lead people to and just kill them (such as the preser chamber in the original UT.

i dont realy like ulta detaled maps there is just some thing missing like you spend all your time making the map look good so you crap out at the desine

i also like maps that there are spots you can go to if you need to replenish health or ammo and there are no monsters there maybe some people like to rush in and kill every thing but most people dont like being cornerd

i also like stuff some-what out in the open so i dont have to run around with 7 monster on my back i can look and see there is some health there or ammo

player friendly maps are good too, monster friendy are only good if the player is loooking for a chalange

i hope i've been helpfull

(sorry about my spelling)

Death's unavoidable, lets have a drink.


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Metal_Dragune wrote:
I like mapes where there is a lot of secrets and hidy-holes

also i like mapes where there are trap you can lead people to and just kill them (such as the preser chamber in the original UT.

i dont realy like ulta detaled maps there is just some thing missing like you spend all your time making the map look good so you crap out at the desine

 



Another thing about INV maps is that they are extremely fast-paced. Designing a map that "flows" would be big on my list. Having a ton of stuff to 'snag' on just makes the experience annoying.

Generally speaking, maps with two ends (CTF) aren't the best for INV in my opinion. The action tends to bunch up in a couple key places. A good INV map should encourage players to be constantly moving and use the whole map. Take Bridge of Fate, for example. Most of the action occurs in the two large rooms with only the occasional spawn happening out on the bridge. But the relative danger from falling means that's where a good portion of spawns should happen. Risk vs. reward. BoF isn't a bad map but it could be better, IMO.

I think a spoked-wheel design might work, but not if too big. So you can move about the outer-edge of the 'wheel' or along the spokes.

Within hallways I think some overhangs would be cool, as useful spots when fighting airborn warlords. And maybe small uprights that conceal you when you duck, for use against titans. Perhaps some 'mirrored' surfaces that reflect energy fire from skaarj.

Multi-level maps should have many access points between the levels, almost a swiss-cheese arrangment. That rewards players that can pull out their trans quickly. When you know the monster is directly overhead but know that you have zero chance of getting there before another player, that is simply frustrating. Point distribution should be based on skill, not on who happens to luck out with a monster spawning right next to him/her.

Another thing that annoys me about certain maps is when you can see a monster on radar two feet away from you but it's nowhere to be found because it's on the other side of a 2mm thick wall. But to actually get there you have to do rat-in-the-maze thing.
Tidu!

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Joined: 12/20/2004 14:32:15
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Just a little variation to the post...

What specific maps do you think are perfect for the invasion (Not all of the top voted maps are good...)

I do think Osiris is an excellent map. It's got a decent amount of health, a few slow areas where you can count on a monster not being there for some healing.But to contradict what was said before; it's a symetrical map.

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Continuum

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Joined: 03/09/2005 05:20:36
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Osirus would probably get my top vote.


I think Tricky is also a decent map for invasion, I can remember playing as a the last player when my level was fairly low but somehow managing to stay just ahead of all the Titan rocks, ducking behind a hlll, translocating to a weapon locker to pick up mine ammo dropping some mines then running to the nearest vehical before they could catch up... was lots of fun

Another fun map that most people wouldn't think would make a good invasion map is Gael, it stays fast paced even with only a few players but is still possible to beat (not like oceanic )

And of course everyone loves boom boom bridge!




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ck

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Joined: 01/20/2006 17:28:27
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i think a map doesn't have to be huge to be fun, it can be small but have open spaces and that works for invasion. i enjoy playing in hall of anubis as much as any other map, i think it's good amount of action, plus there's stlil a chance you might die so it's not that easy. i will admit that redeemers sometimes make it look too easy, but still very simple and fun.

goldendawn (i think that's what it's called) is also a good map, not so big, it's open space plus good amount of z axis. it's harder than the other, but it's still a lot of good action.

small size maps pretty much guarantee more action, but that doesn't always mean you dominating the monsters or vice versa . corridors tend to make bad maps for invasion, and big maps with huge open spaces are usually slow-paced and too easy. so, small/meidum size + open spaces should moslty work.
 
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