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Subclass balance in DruidsRPG227  XML
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Locrian

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Joined: 11/05/2010 16:07:35
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I think Demon already knows what I think about low levels bypassing the xp grind ( .) Would there be an issue with offering both RPG and non-RPG versions of DM? The main DM mode could probably go completely RPG-less, but I have to say I love RPG TDM and seeing how different classes work together to take out the other side. Is it unfair? At times, yes, and mainly it's due to the way the server automatically balances teams (or fails to, more often than not), but it's still a ton of fun.

And yes, I have played on teams that were completely outmatched but I still had fun, like the time I was with a bunch of low levels and Ryuxen (turret specialist) and Smurf (extreme engineer) were on the other team. We were slaughtered, but I had a blast anyway.

Edit (10/13/11): I just read the "Changes submitted since 227" thread; good call on the EAM nerf. I'm confused about the EWM part, though. I thought Advanced Damage Bonus this build was already +30%? Where did the extra 20% come from?
K&D_Enterprise



Joined: 08/04/2010 14:40:04
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I played the Bersker for a bit and a first few levels are fine, but then it turns into a run and hide for you life. The power of the character is fine but no regen or shield regen, even if it was really low would help. At least you could go lick your wounds. If there is no base or players to help you, you're simply dead, which I was on almost every level on the map. Getting killed by a monster with like two shots with 400 health is not condusive to a great game play experience.
Szlat

Wicked Sick!

Joined: 05/18/2005 18:32:41
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K&D_Enterprise wrote:
I played the Bersker for a bit and a first few levels are fine, but then it turns into a run and hide for you life. The power of the character is fine but no regen or shield regen, even if it was really low would help. At least you could go lick your wounds. If there is no base or players to help you, you're simply dead, which I was on almost every level on the map. Getting killed by a monster with like two shots with 400 health is not condusive to a great game play experience. 
Everyone has a slightly different style of playing, and so different subclasses suit different people. Some people like the Berserker subclass, and never play anything else. And they get high scores - it just takes some getting used to.
Szlat

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Locrian wrote:
I'm confused about the EWM part, though. I thought Advanced Damage Bonus this build was already +30%? Where did the extra 20% come from? 
The Advanced Damage Bonus is +30% when maxed.
LW6, which only the EWM can buy, gives the player an additional +50% damage bonus, as well as maxed weapons, in exchange for reduced adrenaline use.
Locrian

Rampage

Joined: 11/05/2010 16:07:35
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Oh wow, I never knew that. No wonder it always felt like I was much stronger when playing EWM...
K&D_Enterprise



Joined: 08/04/2010 14:40:04
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Szlat wrote:

K&D_Enterprise wrote:
 
Everyone has a slightly different style of playing, and so different subclasses suit different people. Some people like the Berserker subclass, and never play anything else. And they get high scores - it just takes some getting used to. 



You're right Szlat, plus there are other options. So I guess the point is, it provides a different type of challenge, so when I think about it it's a good thing for sure. Silly me.
HighwratH

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Joined: 07/01/2006 13:01:46
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K&D_Enterprise wrote:
I played the Bersker for a bit and a first few levels are fine, but then it turns into a run and hide for you life. The power of the character is fine but no regen or shield regen, even if it was really low would help. At least you could go lick your wounds. If there is no base or players to help you, you're simply dead, which I was on almost every level on the map. Getting killed by a monster with like two shots with 400 health is not condusive to a great game play experience. 


There's only one way to stay alive as a Berserker (that I have found) in large maps and later waves.

Hint: Globe of Invincibility

You better call Kenny Loggins. 'Cause you're in the danger zone!

Desert_Wrath: de-zert_rath
Desert:arid land with usually sparse vegetation
Wrath:strong vengeful anger or indignation

My Skin: Homer 2009
HighwratH

Rampage
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Szlat wrote:
Everyone has a slightly different style of playing, and so different subclasses suit different people. Some people like the Berserker subclass, and never play anything else. And they get high scores - it just takes some getting used to. 


Berserker is, IMHO, is freakin' AWWWWESOOOOME!


You better call Kenny Loggins. 'Cause you're in the danger zone!

Desert_Wrath: de-zert_rath
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Flak Monkey

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Joined: 08/24/2006 12:21:41
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Agreed. Think we need our own support group. Berzerkers Anonymous. Too addicting to try something else.

My current skin After several other skins, I have reverted back to Bender.

Flak Monkey -> Berserker ( 818 )
Flak Junkie -> AM (60)
Monkey Wrench -> Engineer (27)

Favorite quotes:

"It puts the lotion on it's skin, or else it gets the hose again."

"Every morning is the dawn of a new error"

"But why is the rum gone?"

"The brain is a wonderful organ. It starts working the moment you get up in the morning and doesn't stop until you get to the office." - Robert Frost

"Beer has some Food value, but Food has no Beer value."
Locrian

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Joined: 11/05/2010 16:07:35
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I guess I'll get the ball rolling with player feedback. Note that I haven't been maintaining a record of how I've scored with each subclass; I just played them a bunch of times and kept track of how they felt on average.

-MM/Eng. Let me preface this by saying that I haven't maxed out the subclass yet (only level 97 on my medic), so obviously I haven't seen it at its full potential. Initial impressions are that, while it is a good choice for people who are play medics as medics rather than monster masters (which is how I've played my medic, for the most part, since level 70 or so,) between the base specialists both healing and restoring shields and the reduced damage, it has a very low XP return rate. Again, that won't bother the type of people the class was intended for, and it may be improved once I get it to its maxed potential; just something to note. I doubt Ghost or Cazius would have problems scoring well, though; they're way better at telefragging than I.

-Tank. It didn't get any weaker since last build, which means it's still very powerful. Even compared to the now-boosted base WM class, I feel like it's still scoring higher under normal circumstances. With strong competition present in-game, its performance drops more than that of subclasses like Berserker or EAM, given its slow fire rate (if a linked turret is in the area, forget it.) And it maintains its inherent emphasis on aiming ability over carpet-bombing enemies with rockets, which is a nice change of pace. Still, I'm not sure that that justifies its extra power.

-Berserker. Definitely a bigger challenge (thus, IMO, more enjoyable) than last build. Still feels stronger than the base WM class (and possibly Tank), and as Flak_Monkey demonstrated on Dueling Keeps, with a globe it's pretty much unstoppable. I haven't tried playing on an "antithesis" map like Hangar or Familyroom, but it performs quite well (re: better than base WM) on relatively spacious CTF maps like Stonewall.

-Skilled Weapons. After the first few scores I made with this subclass, I was fairly certain it was overpowered. Then I played a few games where I joined late in the match and/or only mid-to-high level players were on... and it's brutal. Borderline humiliating if you're stuck with all vanilla weapons. In practice, there are only a select few weapons that can be effectively used against every enemy at every stage of the game, and if your weapon of choice isn't magical and only high levels are on, there's almost no point in playing, because you start out weaker than any other WM, subclass or not, and the lack of magic weapons means you can barely scratch high-level monsters, who, in later waves, are much tougher than the early waves.
Does this justify the subclass's admittedly impressive power under ideal conditions? I don't know. I'm still arguing with myself over it because the subclass can be potent, but whoever plays it has to be far, far more selective regarding when he/she can play if they're concerned about getting a decent score. Variables like player composition, wave number, and map topography become a lot more important to performance than other subclasses, as your kill rate early on in the game (which is affected by the three qualities mentioned) determines how much damage you deal in the tougher, later waves. But does that give it an excuse to be too powerful in favorable circumstances? Again, I don't know.

-Extreme WM and Extreme AM. Steps have already been taken to reduce these subclasses' power and I've since stopped playing either, so no comment is necessary. I will say, though, that I agree with both measures.

AM/MM and AM/WM. I have to do more testing with both, but I'm fairly certain that I scored higher with AM/MM than AM/WM... possibly both were higher than the base AM (just a guess). The only artifact I missed was chain lightning, but anyone who knows how to properly use the fireball can score well regardless.
Locrian

Rampage

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Speaking of base specialists... I'm scratching my head as to why they're given all the defense sentinel upgrades like a general. Extreme Engineer had armor healing and shield healing last build, so it would make sense to give base specialists those two, but health healing? Adrenaline? Ammo? Is this really necessary considering a base specialist can make up to four defense sentinels, thus practically negating the point of playing as a medic hybrid (except MM/Eng, but even that loses ground on healing xp) and making games even easier to win? I've played a couple of matches as MM/Eng and medic with multiple base specialists on the map and, quite honestly, I could have slept the whole time and it wouldn't have made any difference in who lived or died, let alone the final outcome.

I haven't played base specialist yet, so take this with a grain of salt. I have no idea how powerful the subclass is in terms of XP gain, but that's not what this post is about; I'm concerned about how powerful they are in keeping everyone alive to the point where it takes all of the uncertainty and challenge from the game. That, or maybe I've been reading too many Roadkill posts. Either one.
Hollon



Joined: 10/07/2011 10:22:32
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I agree with Locrian on the base specialist having a little too much goodies. It doesn't make sense to me why a subclass of an Engineer has the ability to heal people and boost their adrenaline and ammo, and it even further negates the use of a medic, especially with 2 to 3 base specialists present. I usually sit in the base and link to other people, and I barely get scratched from waves 1-15(which is good, because that is what a base specialist is about), but the fact that I have maxed health, adrenaline, and ammo when no medics are around or when I haven't killed any monsters to get my adrenaline up doesn't make sense to me. A base should provide protection, not luxury.
Locrian

Rampage

Joined: 11/05/2010 16:07:35
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Was it intentional for the Defense Sentinel Health bonus for the MM/Eng hybrid to only heal up to 100 over the player's normal max health? It may have made sense last build, given that the hybrid could only buy up to Loaded Medic 2, but level 3 is available now which allows healing (with the medic gun) up to 150 over the player's normal max.

As it stands, it's no more powerful than a base specialist's defense sentinel in terms of healing (and it's arguable that they should even have that ability), but while the MM/Eng is limited to two sentinels, the base specialist can build 4. Seems a bit odd to me.
Szlat

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Joined: 05/18/2005 18:32:41
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The defense sentinel only being able to heal up to +100 health was a decision so that there would always be space for a medic or extreme medic to be able to top people up. And I think that restriction should also apply to MM/Eng sentinels - the MM/Eng can get the rest of the healing xp by standard healing methods.

Note that the MM/Eng can buy up to level 5 of sentinel healing, while the base specialist is limited to level 2. So the 2 MM/Eng's sentinels will heal more each second than the 4 base specialist sentinels, and hence return more healing xp.
Locrian

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I take it that means Base Specialists are keeping all of their current Defense Sentinel bonuses?
 
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