Extreme Engineer SubClass

Szlat wrote:

I am still not sure what way to go here.

I think as we go from LE to EE, we need to be focusng more on engineering based skills and less on others. So

They should be using vehicles and turrets for damage, not weapons. So limit normal weapon damage to 50%, and put a bonus of say +30% on vehicle/turret damage

This change will basically mean the EE will mainly be sitting in a turret or vehicle. If that is the case, shield related stuff isn't really relevant, and armor based stuff would be better:

It doesn't need shield regeneration, because it will be in a vehicle

There is no point giving it shield healing, as again it will be in a building. Instead, the shield healing addon to the defense sents will do the shield healing instead. Not as fast, but will help those around

No use of rod

Create an "Armor Blast" similar to Shield blast etc, for the EE that can be used from within a vehicle or turret. Gives them a use for their adrenaline

Give the large barrel to the EE instead of the Sent Specialist

We then have the list as now - +5 on Armor Vampire, +5 Construction Health, +5 rapid build.

But we could make a slight difference to the summoning list. Still keep it at 15 levels, but have the AutoGun as a 5 point Turret instead of a 8 point sentinel. This would allow the EE to summon at one time
- Ball Turret (or energy or minigun) [10 T points]
- AutoGun [5 T points]
- 3 defense sentinels [15 S points]
- 15 blocks [15 B points]
The Defense Sents, due to the level 5 shield and armor healing will be very useful to anyone else in the base. So that with the armor blast will be the Team helping aspects.

Is that Extreme enough, but balanced? Out of the turret, it will not last long.

I guess what I'm missing here is this sounds like a Vehicle or Turret Specialist. To me, this is the guy that should be throwing out 20 blocks, 3 strong turrets (would love to see a mini turret that's stronger) and 3 def sents, jump in a turret or link one (and have created an adequate base for all). Unless we are planning on changing the current use of vehicles, they are basically pointless. I mean sure.. you can make a hellbender and do great damage, last most of the map and get xp. But, you piss off the team, you make everyone bounce around, you knock people off the map, there's no sharing of the xp (linking). Vehicles = Anti-Team

oh... of course, this is my opinion. The type build you have suggested, I won't play. I like team play, which this would be partially good for, but it wouldn't do me justice for xp. I'm not real good in turrets because I hate holding down the fire button the entire time and the zoom on the energy turret sucks to use. the ball turret is great to use, but the firing sucks and it has a terrible time shooting anything up close. Anyway... I think I'll just have to look at a hybrid or something else.

If we can come up with no clear distinct role for the Extreme Engineer it might be best to delete it?
In a way, we have 3 Extremes already, in the specialists. To have a subclass that in each category falls between the LE and the Specialist is always going to be a compromise, and will never be as extreme as the specialists.
And we haven't got an Extreme Medic/Monster Master - we split into 2 separate extremes. So splitting the LE into 3 separate extremes called specialists fits in.

So I think my vote is delete it.

I don't think there is space for a subclass that specialises in healing shields. The Extreme Medic gets by because health goes up to 450, leaving lots of healing space. If we tried to do the same for shields and allowed them to go up to 450, it would be too easy. Plus for a lot of the game people would be at full health, just having their shields going up and down - so the medics would get nothing.

Well you can delete the Extreme Engineer but add to each specialist (except sent spec) the ability to spawn 3 def sents with shield and armor healing, make them not to depened from others peoples sentinels, and remove the ion turrets/cannons to make it more balanced.

They will be like the extreme engineer but in their speciality, turrets, vehicles or sentinels.

If Xtremee Engineer is gone How about you give the bonus to shield heal up to 200 to the new MM/Eng class that only specializes in healing??

Its only and add up of 50+ of healing shield from the normal shield bonus

Szlat wrote:

If we can come up with no clear distinct role for the Extreme Engineer it might be best to delete it?
In a way, we have 3 Extremes already, in the specialists. To have a subclass that in each category falls between the LE and the Specialist is always going to be a compromise, and will never be as extreme as the specialists.
And we haven't got an Extreme Medic/Monster Master - we split into 2 separate extremes. So splitting the LE into 3 separate extremes called specialists fits in.

So I think my vote is delete it.

I don't think there is space for a subclass that specialises in healing shields. The Extreme Medic gets by because health goes up to 450, leaving lots of healing space. If we tried to do the same for shields and allowed them to go up to 450, it would be too easy. Plus for a lot of the game people would be at full health, just having their shields going up and down - so the medics would get nothing.

Why not take the same power level stuff from LE and add rapid build, more blocks and large barrels for a XE class? If you need to balance it with "loss" from LE, then lower the damage with hand weapons and take away shielding healing (although, rapid build and blocks aren't really damage oriented.. so it's not a huge bonus or anything.. and I think I'm the only one I've ever even seen using large barrels)

Or instead of XE subclass, you have turret spec, sent spec and vehicle spec... but there's no base specialist - which I guess is where i lean for XE. I still stand that XE should be the extreme version of Engineer (duh right?) but Engineers build stuff... so extreme should be a mass builder. I'm not sure why the focus keeps leaning towards more damage in turrets or vehicles or whatever. Just make it able to build more stuff.. same damage potential as LE but more toys for the team.

Acyd wrote:

Or instead of XE subclass, you have turret spec, sent spec and vehicle spec... but there's no base specialist - which I guess is where i lean for XE. I still stand that XE should be the extreme version of Engineer (duh right?) but Engineers build stuff... so extreme should be a mass builder. I'm not sure why the focus keeps leaning towards more damage in turrets or vehicles or whatever. Just make it able to build more stuff.. same damage potential as LE but more toys for the team.

This would learn towards a building specialist. Meaning the current specialists would not be able to build blocks anymore. And having a building specialist, you would need some sort of offensive ability right? Maybe not to score high but at least to survive. And it would need to be different than the rest, or else what would be the point of it. I just don't see it happening unless you can come up with a good idea that would make it fit right in.

Ryuxen wrote:

Well you can delete the Extreme Engineer but add to each specialist (except sent spec) the ability to spawn 3 def sents with shield and armor healing, make them not to depened from others peoples sentinels, and remove the ion turrets/cannons to make it more balanced.

I think a turret specialist with 3 def sents would be too powerful. So then if you start taking off the ion turrets etc, you end up bringing him down to LE level. The only specialist with sentinels ought to be the sentinel specialist.

Ryuxen wrote:

If Xtremee Engineer is gone How about you give the bonus to shield heal up to 200 to the new MM/Eng class that only specializes in healing??
Its only and add up of 50+ of healing shield from the normal shield bonus

I think the MM/Eng will be poweful enough already without that. And if they can heal health to +200 and shields to +200 it starts to get a bit too easy for everyone. Extreme Medics go +200, but they have nothing else. So if you want the MM/Eng to heal shields to +200, but nit heal health at all, it is possible, but will be much much weaker.

Acyd wrote:

Why not take the same power level stuff from LE and add rapid build, more blocks and large barrels for a XE class?

Because that isnt really "extreme"

Acyd wrote:

Or instead of XE subclass, you have turret spec, sent spec and vehicle spec... but there's no base specialist - which I guess is where i lean for XE. I still stand that XE should be the extreme version of Engineer (duh right?) but Engineers build stuff... so extreme should be a mass builder. I'm not sure why the focus keeps leaning towards more damage in turrets or vehicles or whatever. Just make it able to build more stuff.. same damage potential as LE but more toys for the team.

That is an interesting idea. Replace Extreme Engineer with Base Specialist.
So, what does it need?

Obviously lots of blocks, and give the blocks more health for the base specialist. More formations might be an idea - if there are any that people desperately miss?

3 defense sents, with addon for armor and possibly shields.

Perhaps have the energy wall?

Could have a "Link Sent" that automatically links to any vehicle/turret/sentinel in range, and acts like an engineer link gun. So you would heal vehicles and sentinels, and do the heal/bosst on turrets gaining xp. Would need to keep the range fairly short. But this would probably be the main xp earner for this subclass. Might need different levels to give more energy reserves, which will mean it can boost more things?

No shield regen or healing. No armor regen or healing.

Would probably have barrels.

rapid build 10

Could have a single large "blast" spike. The idea is you link it for a certain time to charge it, and then it blasts. Nature of the blast has to be decided - could be repulsion or poison or null entropy or even just death. Charging would take a single engineer a couple of waves. So for example could have it charged ready for wave 12, and use just as the base is about to be overrun.

Not sure of the exact implementation, but you could allow the engineer to spawn "acid pools", which burns monsters as they run over them.

what if exteme base engi, summons traps.. spiked torns or something like the pool u said.. that be great

Szlat wrote:

So, what does it need?

Obviously lots of blocks, and give the blocks more health for the base specialist. More formations might be an idea - if there are any that people desperately miss?

3 defense sents, with addon for armor and possibly shields.

Perhaps have the energy wall?

Could have a "Link Sent" that automatically links to any vehicle/turret/sentinel in range, and acts like an engineer link gun. So you would heal vehicles and sentinels, and do the heal/bosst on turrets gaining xp. Would need to keep the range fairly short. But this would probably be the main xp earner for this subclass. Might need different levels to give more energy reserves, which will mean it can boost more things?

No shield regen or healing. No armor regen or healing.

Would probably have barrels.

rapid build 10

Could have a single large "blast" spike. The idea is you link it for a certain time to charge it, and then it blasts. Nature of the blast has to be decided - could be repulsion or poison or null entropy or even just death. Charging would take a single engineer a couple of waves. So for example could have it charged ready for wave 12, and use just as the base is about to be overrun.

Not sure of the exact implementation, but you could allow the engineer to spawn "acid pools", which burns monsters as they run over them.

Formations - There's two things that we always seem to have to create. Columns (I'd say use blocks and 2-3 high) and a single row wall (usually make a "wall" and kill top two blocks)

Large Barrels

No offense sentinels, but add all the DefSent skills (this would help all in the base... no matter the class.

Blast spike - sounds like a cool idea, but if i'm gonna charge something for an entire wave... is it gonna provide the xp I would miss out on for an entire wave? Hard to see that as being possible.

Trip Wires - how about instead of Energy Wall, we have trip wires. Same time thing, except be a trip wire that sets off Large Barrels type explosions. (If we use large barrles, please make them not able to be blown up otherwise)

Ability to "Kill All" of a certain type of sentinel (though, I think all engis should have this)

Acyd wrote:

Formations - There's two things that we always seem to have to create. Columns (I'd say use blocks and 2-3 high) and a single row wall (usually make a "wall" and kill top two blocks)

Should the wall be three blocks wide or four?

Acyd wrote:

No offense sentinels, but add all the DefSent skills (this would help all in the base... no matter the class.

I think this is overkill - to have a defense sentinel that heals everything fast. The main one for base building is armor, which also heals blocks.
I know the general class gets all at level 2, but I think we should not have this class doing everything - leave space for the def sents from other classes to add value.

Acyd wrote:

Ability to "Kill All" of a certain type of sentinel (though, I think all engis should have this)

This subclass only has one type of sentinel, so we can't justify the extra "kill all of.." for this one

Szlat wrote:

Acyd wrote:

Formations - There's two things that we always seem to have to create. Columns (I'd say use blocks and 2-3 high) and a single row wall (usually make a "wall" and kill top two blocks)

Should the wall be three blocks wide or four?

Three is the normal now and I would think be good

I could also see a half square (2 high)
[_][_][_][_]
[_].........[_]
[_].........[_] (16 blocks)

[list]Also could use a "Castle Wall" - alternating 2 high, then 1 high. 5 or 7 wide (long castle wall, short castle wall?) So you end up with:
[_]......[_]......[_]
[_][_][_][_][_] (8 blocks)
and
[_]....[_]....[_].....[_]
[_][_][_][_][_][_][_] (11 blocks)
[/list]
--Sorry had trouble with the spaces.--
(I could come up with several others I think... not sure how hard these are to do. I know some (like the square wall) do some really odd things if you are standing above the translocator when you make it.)

Szlat wrote:

Acyd wrote:

No offense sentinels, but add all the DefSent skills (this would help all in the base... no matter the class.
I think this is overkill - to have a defense sentinel that heals everything fast. The main one for base building is armor, which also heals blocks.
I know the general class gets all at level 2, but I think we should not have this class doing everything - leave space for the def sents from other classes to add value.

Agreed. (oh sure.. throw down the old "Value add" card *bleh!*) ;)

Szlat wrote:

Acyd wrote:

Ability to "Kill All" of a certain type of sentinel (though, I think all engis should have this)
This subclass only has one type of sentinel, so we can't justify the extra "kill all of.." for this one

Well, wasn't sure how the pools and trip wires were coded. I know the Energy Wall is considered a Sentinel now... I guess it's defensive? So the pool or whatever else might come to be... would also be defensive?

Acyd wrote:

I could also see a half square (2 high)

Not sure I understand what you mean here. A square would be 2 up and 2 across. What is a half square?

Acyd wrote:

[_][_][_][_]
[_].........[_]
[_].........[_] (16 blocks)

This looks like 8 blacks to me - two columns of 3 and two for the bridge at the top. Note the middle top blocks must slightly overlap the columns otherwise they fall.

Acyd wrote:

Also could use a "Castle Wall" - alternating 2 high, then 1 high. 5 or 7 wide (long castle wall, short castle wall?) So you end up with:
[_]......[_]......[_]
[_][_][_][_][_] (8 blocks)
and
[_]....[_]....[_].....[_]
[_][_][_][_][_][_][_] (11 blocks)

I suppose the current "Wall" is the 3 wide castle wall.

Acyd wrote:

(I could come up with several others I think... not sure how hard these are to do.

They are easy to do. I just type in the number of blocks and the relative x,y,z positions for them. Only problem is, the more we have the longer it takes to scroll through them.

We have the idea of using something like energy walls, trip wires, acid pools or whatever as an aggressive defense against attacking monsters. I am not sure we have got the exact thing we need yet?

Also, not sure what to do about the spike idea. The point is, the base specialist has nothing to attack with except his link gun - and if he has to go wandering round the map to kill things, the base could easily disappear when he dies. Perhaps charging for a couple of waves is too much.

Half-Square... basically a nest or curved wall.. except not curved.

The basic thing I was trying to get at is alot of what we have now is rarely used as it is.

The High-Wide wall is usually thrown up, then kill everything except the bottom row.

The leaning wall is really only functionally used to make the top blocks "float" on Megawoot and I've seen it used once on Deck map.

The low wall can be good if using a Sentinel, but anything after wave 5 now seems to jump over it anyway

and it's rarely used. Why use 5 small blocks if I can use 3 large?

Tall Nest Wall - personnaly.. love this one, but it's only because I use it when I get irritated at the other players or have to afk. I throw up a tall nest wall, drop 2 def sents and a lightning sent. but normally, no reason to use this. You can't shoot over it, so you might as well use the nest wall and just have to tear down 1 level.

Tall curved wall... this one has a little more use, but again, noone wants to waste the blocks so that you can have a "hole" to shoot through when you can just tear down to a single level and shoot over it.

so maybe re-evaluating the current formations and their usage (and also... do they promote camping?

) would be something to do also. The formations now are toys for me. I will throw some massive wall just to cure my boredom at times, but not really in a functional manner.

also i saw extreme engineers with identical varieties of vehicles so im thinkin add some custom vehicles that the ex engineer can be extreme like supa energy turret that fires link turret projectiles a scorpion that can have passenger seat useful for larger maps even a rocket tank that rapidly fires rockets no need to re skin also if no to this idea how bout putting in somin like advanced turrets like link turret or making some of the turrets into sents like energy sent liiks like the energy turret but smaller and is a sent (shoots 4 u) or adding some weps like modifiing the engineers link to make it heal vehicles faster and all of that and ofr extreme monsters let them summon watham invasion onsters serious ly epic servers mean epic game play the mm wop server

I just wanted to give more food for thought...

I've been playing XE and am enjoying it as is, but see more of a deficiency in the amount of stuff I can build and the power of the stuff I build.

We've talked in this thread about what to do with the XE.

I don't think we've explored any options that weren't related to making the XE themselves, more powerful or weaker.

What if we made them able to make a few better combinations of stuff. I.e. Two Energy turrets or 3 mini turrets or 2 mini turrets and 1 energy or 1 ball turret and 1 mini, etc.

or.. if we leave the current combinations (pts), then can we make the turrets themselves more powerful?
my line of thought being... What if the XE just made an Extreme Base? More power to be shared with the team. Sure, they can increase the health, but really.... damage is where it's at. base the damage potential on the turret itself, versus the person in the turret.

Just a thought I had.
I love the mini turrets, but if they were Extreme... they would do more damage. (I'm visualizing a double-barrelled mini turret)

fallen7x7 wrote:

also i saw extreme engineers with identical varieties of vehicles so im thinkin add some custom vehicles that the ex engineer can be extreme like supa energy turret that fires link turret projectiles a scorpion that can have passenger seat useful for larger maps even a rocket tank that rapidly fires rockets no need to re skin also if no to this idea how bout putting in somin like advanced turrets like link turret or making some of the turrets into sents like energy sent liiks like the energy turret but smaller and is a sent (shoots 4 u) or adding some weps like modifiing the engineers link to make it heal vehicles faster and all of that and ofr extreme monsters let them summon watham invasion onsters serious ly epic servers mean epic game play the mm wop server

errr... I think we're barking the same tree

sorta.

Extreme Engineer means Uber-base to me.