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A different aproach to balance classes. and some heavy thoughs about DC classes  XML
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Wail

Rampage

Joined: 09/20/2007 21:14:41
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(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

Wail wrote:

Obvious example: Vorpal Shock Rifle. It's by far the best Shock Rifle you can have, and there's almost no reason to ever prefer anything else over the Vorpal Shock Rifle.  


Actually, there's the SSR (Super Shock Rifle), which is a 1 hit/1 kill set-up used in some servers, basically a mega vorpal. 


The Instagib/SSR is a different weapon from the Shock Rifle.


(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:
As a high-level WM and mid-level talent, I feel that (repeat after me) teamwork (repeat after me) is the best when all classes are working together. 


That's a pretty banal sentiment. For WMs at least, I am not sure they really play into the team game on more than a very superficial level. Killing monsters (I think, inarguably the main focus of the WM) is something anyone can do, class or no class.

I think WMs really ought to play more of a team role, but there I feel like we run into the (IMO silly) sentiment that the ability to benefit your team should necessarily come at the cost of personal effectiveness.
HighwratH

Rampage
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Joined: 07/01/2006 13:01:46
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OK, despite what my previous posts might suggest, I'm really not all that certain that the WM is under powered. My experience is that when a good AM is in game my WM is much more fun and scores much higher than when no AM is playing. That being said, I agree with Elite that the single biggest effect on my WMs power is when low level players are in game and stay alive. I don't score as high as some because I'm simply not all that talented, level 600+ creates the illusion of greatness.

What I am not sure of is what role the high level WM is supposed to play in the "team concept" other than contribute to mega frags. Are they supposed to hang around all other players in close proximity? Seems they are better suited to be out solo fragging like crazy, or should they hang back and offer more of a protectionist role to others? There have been many waves that players were hunkered down for a thugfest only to wonder at the end of the wave, "where were all the monsters?" Meanwhile I was out there solo with nothing but, "holy ****, adrenaline full" repeatedly ringing in my headphones. Which means, of course, that I am having an absolute blast! Woohoo!

There are times when I need to hang back with all other players, but almost exclusively when no AM is on and therefor I have weaker weapons and no chance of going it alone should all other players be killed off. This is borne of necessity and honestly, sometimes I forget and go solo anyway simply because I've become used to it.

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RoadKill v3.4

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I agree with Wrath on his statement above (level does create an illusion of skill just see my scores ),and see most of the "hunkering" down as a direct consequence of the engineer class

those of us that were around before the Engineers will remember the days before "were is the base, were is the base ?"

as a WM I tend to search out the high traffic areas and stay there not necessarily the safest place to be but the most fun
and trust me you don't want Elite, Desert,Hobo or even me as WM hanging around the bases taking all the kills that isn't any fun for the rest of you

with the advent of the engineer (don't get me started on camping they/I make a fort) players are much less mobile ,which I see as MUCH less fun

I usually only bring out my Engineer by request , or to help out the lower level players (so they can have fun/level up)

Let me also restate the fact that the WM is the Primary class by design and the others are designed as supplementary

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emetakleze

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Joined: 01/02/2005 18:15:15
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I love my WM. It is my only character really. As you all know, I've been around for a while, off and on lately. I'm only in the 100's, as I don't have a lot of time to play and I really just want to have fun, I don't have to have the best score or have to hit that next level. That being said... My opinion is that the WM is, as was said above, the Primary, the killer, Sarge, for those who play mmorpg's, the tank. To quote an old Magic 4th gen card..."Battle doesn't need a purpose; battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreds or a field burns, don't ask why I fight."
I'm not saying Medics, AM's and Engineers are "below" the WM. I know alot of you of different classes that quite frankly kick a lot of monster butt! But the WM needs to be in the middle of critters, out in the 'no mans land' in front of the line, where we are happiest, covered with monster jell-o and grinin' from ear to ear even while were ghosting, 'cause we know we shall frag again, and maybe, just maybe our lives will be worth a song. Upon my recent return to the game I've seen the "where's the base" call several times. We used to have bases too, but that was when we all were WM's, no other class was even dreamed of yet. Our bases were nooks and crannies found that funnled the critters, or offers some protection. Usually where we all set our trans and shot too when bleeding to death and needed regen to add up. Our blocks and walls and turrets were our bodies and guns and guts. Heck, a lot of the time we didn't even make it to 16 with a full crew on! (Unless DD was here ; ) you could bet you'd make it then, most of the time) Are the classes a cool idea? Beyond a doubt. Is team play the way to go? Obviously. The real question is, who does what on the "team". The answer to that is, imho, up to the player. I am a loaner usually. I die, alot...and happy to do it. Do I think a Medic should follow me around and keep me healed? Or wait at a mandatory "base" made by an engineer so I can come in and get fixed up, and my shields while I'm there, and oh yeh, since you should support me AM, up my Vorp Shock to the max and give it back, k? NOPE! I will still run around with my vamp and heal, pick up shields and health packs when I can. If some one does heal me or charge my shields, "thank you *" pops up on the voice chat every time if I don't say it in voice. If I happen to have a sweet weapon or two, but don't use that type at the time, it gets tossed to the closest player that looks like they could use it. (I esp like to give Infinity weps to meds and eng and my Vorps to anyone as if I have one I will die for sure.)
Well, to boil the lard down to soap so to speak, play the game , have some fun and help out the grunt next to you, I'm sure they will return the favor at some point.

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Hobo_Joe

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Joined: 06/12/2005 20:15:17
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"covered with monster jell-o and grinnin' from ear to ear" thats what makes me happiest!! with any class. and I think a lot of that is from starting out with a weapons master first. AM was still pretty new when I started playing. so when I play my other chars. LA, engi, medic? I still play them like a weapons master, finding the biggest group of monsters I can and splattering them all over!! doesn't mean I'm not a team player tho (although some people might think I'm not) I play medic with my WM, tossing people health when they're low. I'll get that health back.

I'll shield blast with my engi and link up and help build the bases for the other engineers, doesn't mean I'm gonna stay in it and link the 1 person in a turret doing all the killing. I want to kill too. On the rare occasion that I build a turret and use it, if u link me the whole map? I'm grateful for the help but it's entirely up to you.

I'll be chasing monsters with my medic, but if I see somebody low on health, I'll forget the monster and chase them instead. I want them to live so they can get back out and scatter monster insides on the walls.

as for the big controversy on the balance of classes? it may be unbalanced but honestly? I don't care. some might say u can't score as well or level as fast with one class or another. not entirely true, I have a character with no class. so I don't get the helpers at the low lvls (regen and ghost) there are a lot of things I can't buy because they are only for certain classes. He's lvl 53ish (although some of those levels are from killing Demon and DW and a few others in TDM ) at lvl 23 or so I scored 1k. it's mostly HOW you play, not WHAT you have to play with.

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Loaded Weapons: [WMD]Hobo_Joe lvl: 389
Medic: Hobo_Healer lvl: 101
Loaded Artifact: LA_Hobo lvl:71
Engineer: enJOEneer lvl:110
No-Class: the_hobonator lvl:54
Monster Master: Summoner_Joe lvl:42
Spike

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I'll just "ditto" emetakleze's post - I've been around since before there were classes and my "main" (WM) is still in the low 100's but I have a lot of fun when I do get a chance to play and jump in the middle of the fray - I consider the WM a "tank" so that's how I play mine (after all, this is RPG)

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Grimelark



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When I first came here AM's where still getting tweaks to make them work next to WM's. When the discussions about that were going on it was deemed acceptable for them to be nukers (mages) that is they do a lot of damage but can't heal themselves so they die quick. Now with medics and engineers that's not really the case anymore. I think that of all the classes the AM's were the most helped with the addition of these two classes.

The only way I think that balance would be an issue is if one class (not one person) were to literally kill so fast and so much that other players were no longer having fun. I'm not talking about surge damage as that's fine as lone as it can't be sustained indefinitely through use of different weapons and skills.

I will say this Medics are a pita. I like playing girmelarkmd, but other than in between games people don't let you heal them (and why should they?) To fix this it would be nice if we healed a bit more with our weapons. Especially if as Druid was talking about in another post they reduce the effectiveness of out medic weapon in battle.
Clone-Engineer

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You made the EM sound selfish when in fact most of us aren't!!!! just jk

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(DC)DEMONSLAYER

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Wail wrote:
I think WMs really ought to play more of a team role, but there I feel like we run into the (IMO silly) sentiment that the ability to benefit your team should necessarily come at the cost of personal effectiveness. 


Wail,

The only purpose of the WM class is to kill, (SOLO, not TEAM). The class is designed not to help other players score, not to be used in any type of support role, not to cower behind bricks and walls, but to be out slugging it out nose to nose with the warlords and titans.

That's it...........to me, all other classes are team support for the WM. Don't get me wrong, I have lots of fun with my engineer and medic (we won't talk about my AM as yet) and actually have scored higher with my engineer than I have with my WM. However, when it comes to the fun side of playing, the WM wins every time.

Let us not fool ourselves into thinking we went to the Moon because we are pioneers, or discoverers, or adventurers. We went to the Moon because it was the militaristically expedient thing to do. Neil deGrasse Tyson

Every job is a self-portrait of the person who did it....Autograph your work with excellence. Author Unknown

UT2004
LW-DEMONSLAYER-ACTIVE
LM-DEMONMEDIC-ACTIVE
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LE-DEMONEER-ACTIVE
LG-DEMONJACK-ACTIVE

UT3
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[RMD]RAPIER

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I have not been on this server as long as some here but, I have been here for a while. I have 4 chr, a level 80 medic, level 40 WM, level 170 Eng and 130 AM.

I believe all the classes are very very close to what they should be. If you were to build an auto run program put all the classes in it at the same level and at the same skill level and ability the results would be very near even.

Now as with any game server, new players join and older player move on.
As a new player advances up the level ladder and they buy artifacts their scores go higher. Once they reach a certain level it starts getting easier and easier to hit that higher score. This is what is perceived as how the game works.

However, there is what you don't see!!!! By the time you reach those higher level you personal skills in how you play the game have greatly improved (It how you Play the Game) and everybody’s learning curve is different. There are those out there like elite that have a talent and the rest of us will never reach that level.

The other aspect is team work. But it's not the team work that you’re thinking of. It's the team work of familiarity. When you pay with the same group of people over a period of time you’re going to learn how they play and they’re going to learn how you play. At this point you are going to work together to win.

A small example is I play very frequently with Roadkill and I know he likes the rage flakes. If I make a rage it is almost useless to me because it kills me faster than the monsters do. So, soon as I get one and Roadkill is on he gets the rage and with it he usually out scores me.

Another example is when I die (Notice I said when not if) I will click over to one of my brother players and watch his back letting him know what behind and around him.

In closing IMHO the game and the classes are where they should be. There is no need to change what works and works well!!!!
RoadKill v3.4

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Well said Rapier
The team work is what keeps me here. I'm willing to sacrifice some of my score to help out other players,
be it by happily handing out weapons to players I know like/need them (just don't ask for my Vorpal )
or by standing around healing with my medic, building turrets for other players, or using a damage sphere instead of the Rod/Triple Combo
Yes most of the above still gets me xp but I will always remember the players that made my early levels enjoyable despite all the dying I did (and it was a lot despite Brandi's Excellent healing )
and I always try to emulate their kindness and help the lower lvl players when I can
and to those who said the Am class was cut off at the knees with the nerfing I say bah! I consistently score as high if not higher than my other 2 characters whom are 200+ lvls higher
Players will always adjust to what is made available to them. What we need to watch for is "exploitable" things or things that are being used in a way that was not intended when the were created

Phew little long winded there all that aside I think the adjustments to the server are going well ,and the classes are well designed and for the most part played well and as intended (sorta )

There are other servers but they really don't matter

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Hobo_Joe

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RoadKill v3.4 wrote:
other servers  




How do you pronounce those words?

A wise monkey is a monkey who doesn't monkey with another monkey's monkey.

The only time I made a mistake is when I thought I made a mistake.

After partying all night Chuck Norris doesn't throw up; Chuck throws down!

Loaded Weapons: [WMD]Hobo_Joe lvl: 389
Medic: Hobo_Healer lvl: 101
Loaded Artifact: LA_Hobo lvl:71
Engineer: enJOEneer lvl:110
No-Class: the_hobonator lvl:54
Monster Master: Summoner_Joe lvl:42
(DC)DEMONSLAYER

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Hobo_Joe wrote:

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:
other servers  




How do you pronounce those words? 


This coming from a guy playing on a weeeeeee!!!!!!

Let us not fool ourselves into thinking we went to the Moon because we are pioneers, or discoverers, or adventurers. We went to the Moon because it was the militaristically expedient thing to do. Neil deGrasse Tyson

Every job is a self-portrait of the person who did it....Autograph your work with excellence. Author Unknown

UT2004
LW-DEMONSLAYER-ACTIVE
LM-DEMONMEDIC-ACTIVE
LA-DEMONMAGIC-ACTIVE
LE-DEMONEER-ACTIVE
LG-DEMONJACK-ACTIVE

UT3
LW-DEMONSLAYERII
LM-KNIGHTMAGIC

My skin is Graah, a reincarnation of an ancient African warrior mixed with the soul of a lion,
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greg11

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(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

This coming from a guy playing on a weeeeeee!!!!!! 


If only ut2k4 was ported to the wii.
Although, the wiimote doesn't have many buttons for keybinds though.
dom60

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greg11 wrote:

(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

This coming from a guy playing on a weeeeeee!!!!!! 


If only ut2k4 was ported to the wii.
Although, the wiimote doesn't have many buttons for keybinds though.
 



And I can imagine all the trashed funiture in the hous if that ever happens!

I may be getting old and falling apart but I can sure can raise Hell and have fun doing it!
 
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