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Artifact Masters as mages  XML
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Szlat

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Joined: 05/18/2005 18:32:41
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BotFodder wrote:
... it occurred to me that maybe AM's should get "penetration" as a skill - even multiple levels could be instituted, where if a weapon has to pass through a player, the player doesn't block the damage to monsters totally.  

What would happen on servers that have friendly fire enabled? Would it still damage the player as it passed through him?

Still, it might get a few less "team-redeemer" kills if the redeemer went through the player rather than exploding.
BotFodder

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Szlat wrote:
What would happen on servers that have friendly fire enabled? Would it still damage the player as it passed through him?

Still, it might get a few less "team-redeemer" kills if the redeemer went through the player rather than exploding.  

Well, I imagine it would work however the penetrating weapons currently work ... which is to say, I don't know, as I don't know how the penetrating weapons work on FF servers. I didn't say the idea was totally thought out ... certainly it wouldn't be a copy and paste of the penetrating weapons' code.

Hmmm ... wonder how penetrating redeemers work now?

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v0rTeX

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Szlat wrote:

What would happen on servers that have friendly fire enabled? Would it still damage the player as it passed through him? 



We run Friendly Fire. Penetrating weapons would go through a player and hit anything behind them. Same as if you shot a monster with it.

Szlat wrote:
Still, it might get a few less "team-redeemer" kills if the redeemer went through the player rather than exploding.  

Redeemers cant be penetrating because they are a projectile weapon. Penetrating only appears on hitscan.

Assault Primary
Shock Primary
Minigun
Lightning Gun
Sniper Rifle

Szlat

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v0rTeX wrote:
Redeemers cant be penetrating because they are a projectile weapon. Penetrating only appears on hitscan. 

I understand that for the current penetrating weapon type. BotFodder was talking about a new AM skill for all weapons.
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BotFodder wrote:
Szlat - I have a similar thread I started over at Adren Masters and XP stuff 


I put my main reply over there, but it was pollenated from this thread, along with all the other times I have mentioned things like this in the past.


Szlat wrote:
I like the idea of AMs being more like mages than front line fighters.
Currently, I think there is too much of a 'weapons focus' on the AMs, and would like to see a greater variety of artifacts to allow them to be more like mages. 


I can agree that this is true. As it stands right now, there is no difference between how the LW and LA players gain XP. The diff is that the LA player can max weapons or make them MAX+1, and their MWM does not break. But this comes with the bigger negatives of having to go hunting weapons when starting (offset partially by denial 3, but it still does not gain me weapons like the deemer/painter and those which are not on the map, unless someone gives them to me) and the lack of regen and vamp. Add to this the fact that instead of
having points to put into damage bonus and damage redux, LA really needs to put points into health and adren earlier, and they are a significantly weaker character through probably somewhere around level 100-125.

BotFodder wrote:

  • "Score" is not the same as "XP". On a personal note, I've gone up 1000 xp in a map, and had a score of like 350 at the end of the map. I've also had cases where I've had 350 and made no where near 1000 xp. AM's may become like medics eventually - lower scoring than the WM's, but getting just as much XP as the other classes in a given map.
  • I think in the short term Adren Masters are going to be a weak class. But only in the short term. If *any* of these ideas get implemented, you guys will be a force to be reconed with.
     


  • I agree with the premises that score != XP, and that LA players (call them adren junkies, adren masters, artifact masters, magic users, or what ever) are a weak class. And I do not think it is necessarily a short term weakness. Even without vampirism, ghost and all the other goodies a high level LW player would have, I was getting about the same general area of score and XP with my LW1 player at around level 20 or so as I was with LA3 at level 90-95. Indeed, my scores when I switched from LW to LA dropped significantly. Only now are my "scores" starting to recover, but I have finally crossed the 200 adren mark, have cautiousness, and have managed to start thowing a fair number of points into things like damage bonus and reduction, along with abilities like cautiousness.
    As far as numbers on how much XP, on average, my LW player is getting somewhere between 500-1000XP per game (I have been leveling about 2 times in 3 games on average), while my LA player was lucky to break 700. It is still a bit early for me to guess where my new range is, but I am thinking it might finally be back up to 500-1000XP on average.

    BotFodder wrote:

    Szlat wrote:
    :
    # Half health - larger bomb blast that halves the health of all enemies in radius. Kills nothing.  


    I would say that something like this that ignores damage reduction, and works on percentages (starting at 50% at ground zero, going out from there) at different radii would be kickin'.
     


    I agree! Perhaps even giving the "caster" back a portion of the health like a form of vampirism (cap of say 100 or 150), and XP for the damage. Of course, I could see this becoming quite interesting (and perhaps even out of hand) if cast while standing amongst a bunch of stone titans. But maybe it should be allowed, as you are potentially comitting suicide for the team while dealing out a bunch of damage, and XP is probably due that sort of act of stupidity...er...heroism.

    BotFodder wrote:

    I just want people to get away from the score concept for a bit - unless Dru comes up with a way to get people score points that don't involve killing monsters, it can be quite an arbitrary measure and be somewhat misleading. Medics (Fro excluded, of course) don't typically score highly, but I'd guess they were making their fair share of XP. I see AM's headed that way (with, of course, a short term drop in capability until the class is given it's due attention from Dru - congratulations! You guys are the new beta class!). Who knows in the long term though? When Dru starts implementing some of the concepts to expand the AM class, you guys might have a day or so where you too can go from 5 - 52 level in a matter of hours!
     


    About time we are due that sort of XP...just kidding!

    One display which I wish I could do is to show all the players, not just those above level 36, and do things like break them down according to class, etc. Indeed, what would be really interesting is to see time based gains (best we can do now is clock based, not playing time, since logging is disabled, and there is no way to see how long folks play), and compare both within a class, and for players of different classes but similar levels. I think we can agree that folks like Fro, Ooo, and probably every player above level 150 are nowhere even representative of the average player. But I think this is the only this way can we really hope to come up with things being truely ballanced.

    BotFodder wrote:

    oolish reader! So much time wasted! That's what you get for reading another typically long BotFodder post! 


    And mine are any shorter???

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    LA -- *BEL*_e (level 283 - Extreme AM), LW -- *BEL*_o (level 26) MM - ?? ( *BEL*_Rolaids ?? *BEL*DrWho??, Engineer... *BEL*BS_E_E [BSEE '89, Ohio U] (level 22)

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    Spacey

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    [KitFox wrote:
    ]Is it normal that so much people ask so much to only one developper?

    If i was Druid, i would probably already had a heart attack

    I dont know how you do Druid. I never have enough time. (Maybe if i did not play 4 hours / day i could topugh )

    I fear you will get too overwhelmed and say forget it i shutdown everything. And i would probably understand. 


    I know on my part (and speaking as a professional software developer of 20+ years), I don't so much ask, as instead give ideas/suggestions, and be happy if any of them show up. I do know that it is really nice when Dru and Shan decide they can come out and play...

    *BEL*_e (spacey), BEL Clan General -- You Frag em, I'll Slag em!
    LA -- *BEL*_e (level 283 - Extreme AM), LW -- *BEL*_o (level 26) MM - ?? ( *BEL*_Rolaids ?? *BEL*DrWho??, Engineer... *BEL*BS_E_E [BSEE '89, Ohio U] (level 22)

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    Spacey

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    And I am one of the other rare ones, though generally for only 2-3 hours each evening.

    As Kit says, I really do not want to see the AM/LA class to get nerfed, regardless of what you may read into my other posts. But having played my main player and switched over to LA from LW months ago, I know what it was like to have a medium level LW player and go to LA. My XP gains dropped dramatically, and are still down (see my other post, where I compare my new level 24 LW player to my level 98 LA player). I suffer the disadvantages from certain lacks of the class, and end up spending a good amount of time either trying to avoid death (because of those disadvantages and the way the vamp weapon was nerfed), or waiting on someone to do some sort of weapons transaction. So, less XP, and I think it would be nice if we could gain some XP back by doing things for the team instead of killing bugs, with no loss in killing power when I can go kill bugs. (Indeed, that is part of the reason why I got so upset over the comment when I was using a rage weapon...sacrificing my health and survivability for the team). No need for some of the suggestions for a LA class if that were done, or XP being granted to hand out certain one-shot artifacts, maxed weapons, etc.

    And I certainly would also be in favor of more efficient adren use and effects. Such as slightly improved chances and +'s when using the MWM, etc.

    [KitFox wrote:
    ]Personnally i dont want my class to be changed. I am one of the very rare active AM online each days. Most of the time im alone on the map. I learbned how to love this class and I love it as it is.

    If you want a mage class go for it but dont touch my class please!!

    I just want to remember everyone that this is Unreal Tournament, how can you imagine playing this game without guns?

    I dont know, put the Transporter, the Lightning Rod, the Electromagnet for Mage class only. Add the nice ideas of Szlat artifact. Choose a list of skills.

    Change all thhe guns by "Adrhenaline Draining" stuff that can be bought with points. Loaded Mage 1,2,3,4,5,6,7" with a default one so mage can actually level.

    And there you go, you have a real Mage class.
     

    *BEL*_e (spacey), BEL Clan General -- You Frag em, I'll Slag em!
    LA -- *BEL*_e (level 283 - Extreme AM), LW -- *BEL*_o (level 26) MM - ?? ( *BEL*_Rolaids ?? *BEL*DrWho??, Engineer... *BEL*BS_E_E [BSEE '89, Ohio U] (level 22)

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