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+5's and triple dmg.  XML
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Szlat

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I think if large open maps were chosen, then the flak wouldn't be in such demand. It would be the avrils or shocks people would want. So, since that to some extent is map dependent, it is perhaps relatively balanced. It just happens that small maps are frequently chosen.

Is the real problem that the triple is too good?
Like everyone else, I like a triple. But there have been numerous posts on other threads saying that triples are the only way to get really high scores, and how it's possible to keep a triple running through a titan way. That doesn't sound balanced to me.

I agree with the others who say make it a double not a triple, or make it eat adrenaline faster, or make it occassionally break.
320

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I'll throw my two cents in (cha-ching)

Vortex wroted:


I personally dont feel the need to nerf the last good damage gun there is.
I can understand Druids intentions with lowering the per + damage on all the other weapons considering they had powerful magic effects, but a vanilla + weapon has nothing other than damage. If he wants to make it a one drop fine, but don't mess with the damage values.

 


I agree. I stated in another thread other ways to balance out the overall situation but this is the simplest way to go. Make them non-clonable and the problem is solved.

Another thing is that lately, people are playing better and with a greater emphasis on strategy. I think it's really cool. People are getting a better idea of play strategy and what tools are best for different scenarios. When you put them together, you have a more effective player.

Some people are getting on the bus and others are not, and the gap is definately showing between the two. A lot of people, in particular, have jumped on the triple damage because now they understand how to use it. I think this is good. I don't think it should be a "secret" that only a few are able to capitalize on. But, it's important to recognize that while it isn't tremendously difficult to use the triple, it does take some skill and practice. So those extra kills people are getting are not "free". They had to work a bit. This is why this particular combination is not quite like the old mine layer.

I also see a lot more people using the avril, as well. People hunt for piercing weps for later waves. Lower level players are planting their transloc more. etc.

I point this out because "guns don't kill monsters, people kill monsters". With more people playing at a higher level, there will always be a gap and it shouldn't be blamed on weapons or the triple. It's a natural product of people just getting plain better. Give a no bonus flak to one of these players and they are still going to vastly outscore and outplay a joe average with a flak +5 and triple.
320

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Mac_Knife wrote:
In my opinion, a flak of energy +3 with triple dmg is better than a flak +5 with triple. With a flak of energy +3 and a triple, on the titan waves, my adrenaline never dips below 80, and my adrenaline stat is at the basic 100.
As for this problem of everybody wanting a flak +5 with triple? I havent noticed this, but that may be because i havent been playing much lately. 


I agree, Flak Energy +2 or +3 is just as effective as a +5, with the only exception being when the server is extremely crowded and you get at most one shot before a big monster goes down.
320

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Szlat wrote:
I think if large open maps were chosen, then the flak wouldn't be in such demand. It would be the avrils or shocks people would want. So, since that to some extent is map dependent, it is perhaps relatively balanced. It just happens that small maps are frequently chosen.

Is the real problem that the triple is too good?
Like everyone else, I like a triple. But there have been numerous posts on other threads saying that triples are the only way to get really high scores, and how it's possible to keep a triple running through a titan way. That doesn't sound balanced to me.

I agree with the others who say make it a double not a triple, or make it eat adrenaline faster, or make it occassionally break. 


Personally, I think a double that eats adren and a triple that runs on a timer would be better. But, if that were the case, we'd have nice camping problem on our hands.
BotFodder

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320 wrote:

Szlat wrote:
I agree with the others who say make it a double not a triple, or make it eat adrenaline faster, or make it occassionally break. 


Personally, I think a double that eats adren and a triple that runs on a timer would be better. But, if that were the case, we'd have nice camping problem on our hands.  


If you're gonna choose to have the triple break, you'd have to make it a one use - no turning it off (which, if you haven't figured it out yet, is the trick everyone's talking about). Now maybe I'm just not as good as the others (or as good at it as others) but I actually do run out of adren even on titan waves. And to be honest, even though I get more adren from titans, I tend to use my triple more on Warlords, who I still find slightly more of a problem than queens or titans. Yes, titans do a lot of damage in one shot ... but the warlords tend to fire off quite a few rockets that tend to track me quite well. Put a couple of them together and I'm toast if I don't have some decent weapon(s) to deal with them with. Titans, on the other hand, don't move much, and the rocks (if you see them) tend to be more easily dodged, IMO.

Someone mentioned (probably in another thread - this topic has been mobile) dropping the damage weapon + to 7%. Even 8% wouldn't be bad, and when you think about it, might be enough for someone to go with a +6 rage at 10%*+ over the +5 damage at 8%*+.

I'm not so sure making them non-clonable is the answer. In another thread (as well as other discussions), Dru has indicated he wants to foster team play, particularly between classes. The fewer the number of clonable weapons you have, team play would suffer, IMHO.

I can tell you from my days as a Mud Admin, balance isn't an easy thing, particularly when you introduce new, very wild variables to a game - the wildest of which can be the players themselves. People *usually* get better at the game as they progress. The question can become: When is it an issue of imbalance, and when is it an issue of just having a bunch of good players on? And do you adjust monster strength for those good players at the expense of new players (or even new characters)? I can also tell you that simple math, while occasionally the starting point, isn't always the solution. Cudos to Dru for not getting too burnt out.

As far as the double/triple thing is concerned, I'm guessing the idea would be to make the things that spawn triples that time out (and probably give them a shorter time than the doubles are now) and make the doubles the things that pop out of monsters? That might be an option ...

Dru, as much as I might get drawn and quartered for this suggestion, now that I think about it, the trick to making the triple rarer might not be so much to make it to where it doesn't appear as much, but make it to where when someone dies, it doesn't drop out of them (this suggestion goes doubly so for the Loaded Artifact people). I mean, the vultures that decend every time someone (particularly someone with LArt) dies ... the horror!

Basically, I think that might be the option for *all* non-breakable, multi-use artifacts, for both regular and LA players. If they can remain throwable but not DoD (Drop on Death), that would make them the commodity that they probably should be, while not horribly impacting any team play they might foster (since you could still give it away). Oh - is there another than the Triple that fits that description (no-break multiuse)?

So, to summarize:

  • Yeah, things could be changed. But not drastically! And probably not all at once, either.
  • Mystic may be making a mountain out of a mole hill - but everyone has an opinion.
  • so *that's* how the list code works in the forums!
  • I can also write a lot when I put my mind to it.

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    Fraggerman

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    320

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    BotFodder wrote:


    Dru, as much as I might get drawn and quartered for this suggestion, now that I think about it, the trick to making the triple rarer might not be so much to make it to where it doesn't appear as much, but make it to where when someone dies, it doesn't drop out of them (this suggestion goes doubly so for the Loaded Artifact people). I mean, the vultures that decend every time someone (particularly someone with LArt) dies ... the horror!

     


    You have some really good points everyone should consider about game balance. It's not an easy thing to achieve. I also have to praise Druid in this regard.

    I think making the triple more rare and/or making it no-drop would cause tremendous balance issues. The triple is a really major pivot point between the LA and LW classes.

    I know this is a team server and points aren't supposed to matter, etc. However, I think teamwork is difficult to achieve unless people feel their class is being treated fairly and balanced with the other classes.

    Although it's not a particularly popular notion, the LA and LW classes are very well-balanced at present when played at the more advanced levels.

    Yes, it is easier to "stay alive" with the LW class, but most high-level players have goals beyond just surviving the waves. If anyone just wants to "stay alive" their choice is clear: LW. But if you want to push yourself, give a good showing on the scoreboard or explore the depth of strategy and tactics the game has to offer, the choice is more complicated. Rest assured, however, that if you take either class to their extremes, you will be able to stay competitive. Seeing the top LA and LW players trade top spots on the scoreboard as the rounds progress is very cool and I think the entire DC community benefits from the healthy competition in the form of deeper gameplay and strategy.

    I'm just saying that regulation of the triple for the sake of the overall play experience introduces the distinct possibility of unbalancing the classes.

    Fro13

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    I don't think it makes as big as a difference as you think.

    Every 3 shots(exactly) it takes to kill a monster, it would take 2 w/ a a +5(exacly). 3:2 ratio. If it takes less than that it really doesn't make that big of a difference becuase you going to kill it in 1-2 shots anyway. It makes more of a difference whether you actually hit it and how far the next monster is to you.

    Lets say somthing takes exactly 3 shots to kill w/ a regular weapon. Thats 2 shots w/ a +5. w/ a triple thats 1 shot each.

    9 shots w/ a regular would take 6 shots with a +5, but it 3 to 2 with a triple. So, your saving 3 shots normally(alot, probaly where people see the problem), but your only saving one shot with the triple.

    20 shots w/ a regular flak, 14 shots with a +5. w/ a triple it's 7 to 5.

    So, the more shots it takes, the bigger the difference there is, but if it takes that many shots, you're either a low level player or a high level player fighting high level monsters. By that time, it would be much better to have a piercing weapon than a +5. So, +5 are probably helping the people w/ low attack bonus more than anybody else. By modifying it, your only hurting the little guy. I (and others) will still be able be score big points whether there are +5 flaks/triples or not. I do it all the time.

    I do see where the problem seems to be though, in that 9 shot range. That is usually about how much a titan or a queen takes to kill. So, it does help there, but if you have a triple your only saving 1 shot.

    just my 2 cents


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    320 wrote:

    I think making the triple more rare and/or making it no-drop would cause tremendous balance issues. The triple is a really major pivot point between the LA and LW classes.
     


    You know, thinking about it, you're right - without the number of triples in the game that there are now, any LAdren player that has the LArt required to get one automatically has a huge advantage over a similarly armed LW player. Ignore what I said about making it rare in previous posts; there's very little that an LW person gets that would make up for not having a triple when a LA player has them. Vamp and Regen? Hmmm ... maybe if you have a lot of it. But the LA player will finish off the monster faster than you will - you'll just have more of a chance to survive being pounded on in the process ... but then LAd characters also have the opportunity to get Adrenal Drip and Adrenal Surge - neither of which are available to LW and both of which would greatly aid in an LAd character's use of the triple. Combined with their ability at LArt 2 to max a magic weapon ... even if it starts out negative ...

    See - this is a balance thing. Gave me a headache when I actively admined the mud I host. Now, it's someone else's problem (sorry Dru).

    Fro13 wrote:

    9 shots w/ a regular would take 6 shots with a +5, but it 3 to 2 with a triple. So, your saving 3 shots normally(alot, probaly where people see the problem), but your only saving one shot with the triple.
     


    It took me a bit to figure out what you were trying to say here - I'll see if I can stated it more plainly - given the same monster:
  • 9 shots with a regular flak comes to 3 shots with a triple
  • 6 shots with a flak 5 comes to 2 shots with a triple
    So the issue isn't so much the flak 5 with the triple as it is the triple, period. But then we get into the whole LAd vs LW balance thing that is likely to keep Dru up nights.

    Someone once suggested that an LAd character might have more issues at lower levels than an LW char. I can't say either way really ... I haven't played anything other than LW yet. I can tell you it took me some banking of points starting at level 44 to get LW 3-5 at 55 (and due to a mysterious mouse flub, 56 for LW 5, actually), as well as some creative stat management to get either Regen or Vamp, and a LAd can get Lart right off the bat (according to the write up - however, some Artifacts they get require significantly more than 100 adren to use, so they have to put points in that) ... and we're back into figuring out balance again. LAds get the toys to take the monsters out, but LWs tend to be the fodder (no pun on my or FodderFigure's names intended, really) that get up in the monster's face. We use Regen and Vamp to stay alive while keeping the monster busy, allowing everyone else to pound on it from a safer position.

    At least that's the theory, I guess.

    What I think I can say is that LAds appear to be very kick-ass at higher levels, when they have LArt with the triple and probably AD and AS. As for my success with my LW char ... well, at 59 I only have vamp 3, regen 2, and LW 5 ... and I usually ditch like 5 weapons when I spawn. I'm never in first place at the end, usually 3rd or below, and IIRC, second only once. And I usually die at least twice if not 3 times between levels 13 through 16, even with Flak 5/Triple. Ghost might change that, but I won't be seeing level 1 of ghost until 72, according to my currently calculations (yes, I have a 23 level plan written out already - by 84, I should have Ghost 3 and Denial 2 - don't even get me started about not being able to get D3, as you LAds can).

    Dunno what I'm trying to say here - except that really I guess I agree with 320 - now, the high level LAds appear to be competative with the LWs. And thinking about it, making the triple rarer is only likely to hurt the LWs and Medics (I haven't forgotten about you guys yet - just don't think any of you are high enough level right now to be considered "high level" - besides, it no longer becomes an issue of "score vs score" but more of "xp rate vs xp rate" when you start talking about MM). And the damage differential between the flak and the flak 5 - perhaps it's not the problem people think it is.

    Summary for this post:
  • Again, someone might be making something out of nothing.
  • At this very moment, I don't want to see the triple be more rare than it is now, as it is the great equalizer between LAs and LWs. It was a snap idea and under further review, probably not a very good one. Sorry - just threw it out there. It was right of you to step on it.
  • I wouldn't gripe too much if the %/+ on damage weapons were reduced by a % point or two, all other things being equal. But I also think in the grand scheme of things, it wouldn't make a humongous difference, so I don't really see a reason to do it.
  • I also don't want to see +4 or +5 damage weapons be non-clonable. Again, as per Fro13's post, that's not really where the great issue lies, if you think it through. And I still think it would hurt team spirit, if nothing else.

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    Okinesu

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    I think using a flak +5 and a triple is just as cheap as using anything else, Mys... I don't think it's really relevant here. As with any other weapon, the novelty will die down eventually or people will get tired of using a hyper-powerful weapon, or Dru might even make it less powerful so it won't even be a problem anymore. Things always work out in the end. As it was with spider mines, so shall it be with flak +5s and triples.

    It's just a flak cannon, after all.

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    Mach10

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    I don't think the 5's and triple are a big issue. Even if almost every person in the server has one, which does happen on occasion, coupled with a few having triples, generally speaking the best players are still the ones left on the latter waves. Even without the triple or a 5 they are still the ones left fighting. Although, the triple is the one I see as more "unfair" as it allows some to mow down monsters with 2-3 shots while others are left running in circles. Although, in later waves I'm just happy to get a few XP and to stay alive. As others have said people are just getting better, and even with a full server I haven't seen a massive change in the difficulty/ease of maps. We are still relying on the better players to bail us out on the harder waves. The 5's simply allow lower level players to be more competitive and garner more XP.

    I wouldn't be against making the 5's non-clonable and/or triples more rare (I'd prefer the latter), but I would be completely against reducing the damage of any weapons. I don't think I was playing when the other weapons were more powerful, but the main reason I use 5's is the damage. I like the magic weapons, but they simply aren't powerful enough in most cases. I like the protection, but if the damge bonus was say 2-3% I'd be willing to sacrifice the extra damage bonus of a 5 for the protection bonus. The same is true for guns like the lucky, sturdy, etc. Furthermore, guns like the lucky father teamplay, as shields and ammo are provided for others. Even though I'm LW and have vampirism I also like using vamp guns as it gives you that much more health back (I'm hoping the vamp it gives compounds any you have bought). But, I prefer the 5 on 15 of 16 waves.
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    i just had a revelation and i think i'll change my opinion in the future but right now it sounds like the perfect solution (although the coding might be harder than i think)

    keep everything the same - dead LA players drop every item, monsters drop at the same rate - but make the DROPS double damage. so the LA player will always have the triple but he will drop a double damage - just like the monsters - for the other two classes. Thus, the LA player has something `special` to a degree and LW players will pick a strong damage modifier after the dead. And it won't make a lot of difference too; what you would normally kill in 4 triple damage shots, you would kill in 6 DD shots. and i know that high level LA players have high scores but if there's one thing more dangerous than a high lvl LA with TD, it's a high lvl LW with a TD and most have the TD by the last waves.

    for this to make sense of course, the adrenalins/second should be kept the same, giving a slight (yet not huge) advantege to LA.

    I thought about monsters still dropping triple damage, but i see 2-3 triple damages pop out of monsters every map and i don't do whole lot of killing and then of course there are low lvl not-so-talented LA players who give them away after lvl 12 (like moi). so i still feel like DD instead of TD for the other two classes make sense... let's see how i feel about this in 1 hour...
    Chyster

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    From the noob perspective:

    Been there. I can guarantee that if I were a noob covered hip deep in monsters, and someone showed up chunkin ground up beer cans at them critters with a purple flack cannon of what ever to save my hide, I'd be grateful. Also, as a noob, I would like it very much if someone shared an equalizer that gave me a chance to stay alive and make some points.

    From the LW perspective:

    Played it. When you come in, your stuck with what you got, period. Unless you hear about the boosted weapon across the map and go get it - or ask a LA to max one for you. By making these weapons non-cloneable, your stopping those in YOUR class from helping YOU, not to mention the LA player who is burning thousands of points in adrenalin to contribute to the team.

    From the LA perspective:

    Playing it. I almost never ever used a trip with a maxed vanilla flack. I love the lightening gun and would turn it into a Vorpal 10. I would play with that purpose only in mind. The LG kills nali with one shot and most skaarj die with one shot from a +10 vorpal LG. I don't know if it is the changes to code or not but lately the vorpals (both LG and SR) are rare as hens teeth and the LG seems to do a whole lot less damage and give fewer points, both on the board and in experience. So I have had to change strategy. My fave combo is the flack +5 with the trip not by choice, but by necessity. It is the only way I can stay alive without the vampirism ability. LW's can take the punishment, I have to deal out the damage and the more folks doing damage, the longer I can stay away from the "face down in the mud" syndrome.

    From the Healers perspective:

    Haven't played it yet. However, I can bear witness to the fact that I have seen healers finish waves, alone, because someone shared a good weapon with them. Saw it myself.

    The nutshell:

    I don't think any change is necessary. I look at it this way, when the final waves hit, and I am one of the few survivors, that flack +5 w/ the trip running up the damage makes very little difference. I can barely dent a titan or queen with it, but the more peepz making dents, the better off we all will be.

    Solution:

    Stop voting for those dang death match maps. Spread the monsters out on a BR or ONS map so the flack becomes the up close weapon of choice it was meant to be. It isn't the code man, its the maps everyone seems hung up on playing.

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    320

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    Mystic wrote:


    and 320 .uhm ..takeing the most powerful weapon in the game and tripling its dmg is not a strategy...its lack of strategy ....

     


    Right. Well, I'm not gonna go down this road with ya bro.
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    Chyster wrote:
    From the noob perspective:

    Been there. I can guarantee that if I were a noob covered hip deep in monsters, and someone showed up chunkin ground up beer cans at them critters with a purple flack cannon of what ever to save my hide, I'd be grateful. Also, as a noob, I would like it very much if someone shared an equalizer that gave me a chance to stay alive and make some points.

    From the LW perspective:

    Played it. When you come in, your stuck with what you got, period. Unless you hear about the boosted weapon across the map and go get it - or ask a LA to max one for you. By making these weapons non-cloneable, your stopping those in YOUR class from helping YOU, not to mention the LA player who is burning thousands of points in adrenalin to contribute to the team.

    From the LA perspective:

    Playing it. I almost never ever used a trip with a maxed vanilla flack. I love the lightening gun and would turn it into a Vorpal 10. I would play with that purpose only in mind. The LG kills nali with one shot and most skaarj die with one shot from a +10 vorpal LG. I don't know if it is the changes to code or not but lately the vorpals (both LG and SR) are rare as hens teeth and the LG seems to do a whole lot less damage and give fewer points, both on the board and in experience. So I have had to change strategy. My fave combo is the flack +5 with the trip not by choice, but by necessity. It is the only way I can stay alive without the vampirism ability. LW's can take the punishment, I have to deal out the damage and the more folks doing damage, the longer I can stay away from the "face down in the mud" syndrome.

    From the Healers perspective:

    Haven't played it yet. However, I can bear witness to the fact that I have seen healers finish waves, alone, because someone shared a good weapon with them. Saw it myself.

    The nutshell:

    I don't think any change is necessary. I look at it this way, when the final waves hit, and I am one of the few survivors, that flack +5 w/ the trip running up the damage makes very little difference. I can barely dent a titan or queen with it, but the more peepz making dents, the better off we all will be.

    Solution:

    Stop voting for those dang death match maps. Spread the monsters out on a BR or ONS map so the flack becomes the up close weapon of choice it was meant to be. It isn't the code man, its the maps everyone seems hung up on playing. 


    I agreee 1M%!! Well... less one or two percent. I don't think it is so much the DM maps themselves, but rather the specific maps. Too many of these maps which are voted in are too small, regardless of whether we are talking DM or BR maps. With 20 players, maps like Helmzdeep are probably getting a bit small, and maps like SpaceNoxx and the one Anubis map (with the water in the middle) are too small. As for the stupid 1-on-1 maps...SHEESH! That is one reason why I tend to try to vote maps like HallOfGiants, BoomBoom and others in. Not saying that we should be playing the maps like Red, or VINV maps, but we should be playing larger maps than we normally do.

    BTW... I know about the rare vorps and vamps. Right now, I am probably averaging 20-30K adren to get just one of these lovelys.

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