Strategy and Tactics discussion

Waves 1 - 5:

On small maps I use flak/mines. On mid and large maps, I use Lightning/mines. If I plan to focus and try to get as many points/exp as possible, I don't hand out weapons on wave 1 (sometimes don't even check to see what they are, really). 1. It eats into the wave. 2. The players who could use the good wep I would hand out (newer players) are often still downloading the map and not even in the game yet, and 3. Your best chances for artifacts are in the early waves. I could be wrong, but I believe there's an artifact limit so once people are loaded up with boots of flights and electro magnets (and don't toss them), you're usually out of luck for a triple.

I'd like to chime in and add that 320's bit on mines has gotten me to pay more attention to them, and now I get about 10 more kills per game. Thanks!

320 wrote:

That's a good point. I don't alter my strategy around weapons very much unless I've got something really nice or really bad. Like if I get a vorpal avril, I'll make sure the avril rocket impacts before switching to another weapon. Normally I wouldn't care.

That's why I'll give away a vorpal shock on most levels, particularly smaller ones. I'm just not very good with it and the clunkiness I introduce trying to bring it up and aim it usually means I'm way too late.

I don't like the shock for other reasons, though. It's too weak. It takes three shock hits to equal one lightning and even with a triple it seems to take an eternity to down a titan.

I think also, this is one of the reasons LA players have it tougher - they have to alter their weapon strategy from round to round depending on what's available and what people give them. Of course, on the flip side, I think a LA player probably ends up more rounded. To each their own.

I have always been one to alter my game strategy, and I am not referring to the differences between say DM and TDM (or DM and LMS). When I was playing primarily games like DM, TDM, and LMS in UT99, depending on what map was being played, what weapons/relics were involved, and the scores, I could play totally different game styles. For example, I tended (and still do to some degree) to be a in-your-face player, primarily using the flak. But on a map like Deck16, I would be sure to get the deemer and go after groups of opponents, and sometimes sniping. Other maps, I would find a nice spot where I was difficult to see/hit, but where I could see lots of folks going by who would go nuts as I picked em off with head shot after head shot (or dropped a goo bomb on their head, or...). Then on maps like Heal Pod and Lilandri Core, I would do things like popping from door to door rocket sniping. But throw in the relics, and things could change dramatically. I preferred to have the regen relic, but throw in vengence, which you could only tell that someone had after you killed them and saw the big bouncing skull ghosting above their corpse, and things changed dramatically. If I did not have it, I did lots of around the corner type kills, and sniped from around columns. And if I had it...watch out. I was very good at running around, doing quick heals by swapping back and forth between vengence and regen, and if running low and seeing a group of players, jumping right in the middle and going BOOM! I heard more explitives over that one, when I would many times net 4-6 kills (or more).

Now, for our typical INV map, the first wave for me is almost always running around getting weapons (I have LA), quickly cycling through a few select weapons while I pick them up to see if I have vamp, vorpal or energy, and otherwise trying to stay alive. With LW, it was more along the lines of get in with the bugs and try to get the MWM and perhaps a few other key artifacts. And as for which weapons to go for first, it is generally some order of rockets, flak, shock, and sniper/lg. Given the nature of the deemer and painter, I will also go after them if they are on the map, as I have saved my bacon quite a few times with them, and I will also go after the avril if it is around as well (slow reload, but hits like a truck). But once I have the main weapons, I will go more towards killing as many bugs as I can to get adren to try to get rid of bad weapons, try to get good ones (particularly the vamp, vorp and energy), and then max them. Given my druthers, I would have a vamp +7 or energy +3 RL, the opposite as my flak, and then a vorpal +10 sniper (or LG). Shock could be what ever of the three or infinite, given I tend to use it in combo mode to kill multiple bugs. As for how I use those weapons, I will try for head shots on nalis when they are around, and depending on factors like cover, map size and such, either hammer the queens, warlords and titans with rockets from a distance (locking when possible), or hitting the titans with the sniper/lg to keep them from throwing as much as possible. Used to be I would try to get someplace where I could snipe or lob flak grenades while making it difficult to be hit when they were around, but the anti-camper mod keeps hammering me when I try that, so that is out. And if we are looking at VINV, I will generally try to be in a raptor during the waves with warlords, queens and titans.

BTW...I am going to have to finish putting up a page on the BEL clan web site to present the numbers on the various weapons, such as fire rate, damage and such. It is amazing how folks view the weapons, but the numbers do not necessarily agree with them. For example (these are all the base values), the primary shock damage is 45hp/shot, with a fire rate of 1.6 shots/sec, yielding 75hp/sec damage. For seconary fire, IIRC these numbers are 45hp/shot, .55 shots/sec and 25hp/sec. But combo...for a direct hit, the numbers are 245hp/shot, around .5shots/sec and 120/sec (dropping to 160 for 120hp/sec at the edge of the combo ball). For the LG, these numbers are instead 70hp/shot, .7 shots/sec and 50hp/sec, doubling for head shots. And for the sniper, these are 38hp/shot, .9shots/sec, and 34hp/sec, again doubling for head shots. But while the sniper seems the least of the weapons, it does not get reflected like can often happen with the shock and occasionally with the LG (yes, you can vorpal yourself with a vorpal shock). Oh, and for the link, the numbers are 22hp/shot, 5.7shots/sec, and 126hp/sec for primary and 90hp/sec for the secondary, before linking. But again, reflecting is a factor.

Waves 1-5:

I usually use one of three weapons, lightning gun is the first choice. You can kill almost everything with 1 shot if damage is maxed out and Ive also found that gettting headshots is fairly easy if you run up right in front of a nali so I usually end up with quite a bit of adren built up fairly fast that way. Second choice is the shock rifle, you get extra points now for the shock combo and it will take out anything that you see in those waves. Third is the RL if I get any type of damage bonus on it I can kill anything with one or two shots from it and with maxed wep speed the rate of fire is pretty high, it just doesnt work well from a distance (or up close)

I guess I'd also use the flak if it was a good one or if I ended up with an inf link/mini that would probably be my weapon of choice.

Fro13 wrote:

I got speed switch 2 just for that doing that stuff. I switch weapons alot, no need to worry about rate of fire when you can use 3 "slow" power guns in succession (Avril, lightning, flak). If there was a speed switch 3, I would buy it.

Agreed, anyone who plays aggresively should consider this skill. In addition, Awareness also has a lot of benefits. By knowing the monsters' health, you can be much calculated/confident. I've run headlong into four or five titans because I saw they were all near death. I've run away because they were all very healthy...

I'm curious to know what LW players think of adrenaline. For me, it has basically one purpose: to power the triple. On rare occasions I'll use it for booster. Of course, I say this but everyone knows I'm not much of a wave 16 player.

ops:

As far as adren and the triple goes, I store up for waves 6, 12, 14 and 16. I'll also use some on wave 11 if I get the opportunity.

I only have about 107 adren, but that usually is enough. I might run out at some point during a titan wave and have to take one down "the old fashioned way" but then I'm back in the swing of things. Obviously, if you max your adren that's ideal, but in deciding how to spend my points, I think I could get by with around 140 and rarely bottom out.

On the other hand, I don't use the globe much. It burns adren *so* fast and I think a well-placed transloc is probably more effective in the end. I'd probably think differently if artifacts were bindable, though.

I occasionally form a moving gang of players on the later waves, and it's a great tactic if one person is using a null entropy weapon. Warlords get cut down incredibly fast and nalis rarely get within damage distance (a solid wall of flak helps).

As for general strategy, I tend to use the minigun and link gun sparingly since I have 1 resupply (I play adrenaline and I usually try to make one of these infinity). Nalis have godlike dodging on the last wave, so I usually try and play cheap by using hitscan weapons or something explosive.

Triple damage vs double magic modifier is a tough call if you're holding a maxed out vorpal weapon, but I tend to go with the triple and a flak if it's a small map, and a double magic vorpal if it's a large map with open areas.

Boots of flight are underrated and underused; they're awesome on space themed maps with deadly falls and they give you instant air control. If you play adrenaline, using them as a final escape to fight off a large horde of monsters is kinda tricky. If you circle around with them in midair, sooner or later a rock will peg you right in the head. You need to constantly adjust your vertical axis to maintain your airborne dodging power. Just try not to go too high with these on a titan wave; I went tower hopping during wave 6 with these on DM-Helmzdeep, and a stray rock ended up landing on Soupman at the beginning of wave 7 just as he respawned (sorry Soup).

If you have adrenaline to spare, playing around with the magic weapon maker and the translocator yields varied results. A translocator of Force or Protection is really useful when running away from hordes of monsters, but they're not covered by Denial 3 (infinity translocators also do not work). A secondary use for magic weapon makering the translocator is to automatically recall the teleport beacon. If you fired your beacon in a pool of acid, you can use the magic weapon maker on it and have the beacon returned. This is also a useful last resort tactic if you're not sure if your beacon is damaged or not and you absolutely need the translocator to be working again.

Dr.Stimpack wrote:

If you fired your beacon in a pool of acid, you can use the magic weapon maker on it and have the beacon returned. This is also a useful last resort tactic if you're not sure if your beacon is damaged or not and you absolutely need the translocator to be working again.

Wow, awesome tip.

320 wrote:

Dr.Stimpack wrote:

If you fired your beacon in a pool of acid, you can use the magic weapon maker on it and have the beacon returned. This is also a useful last resort tactic if you're not sure if your beacon is damaged or not and you absolutely need the translocator to be working again.

Wow, awesome tip.

I agree...great way to recover that translocator that landed off the map, or which you launched into the lava, or ummm....the coffee!

Thanks!!

Thanks for the teleporter tip, learn something every day!

Personally, I love a game with teamwork. Sometimes, late at night, there may be a full game, but it's basically 20 players of which 18 are brand new. Everyone's out to kill things and are competing with each other. Yes there's competition in the game but a game with teamwork is sooooo much better.

I've seen link chains 4 or 5 people long just run around the map. If the front dies, the next take's their place. I make it a purpose to change directions if I see someone low on health to try and act as a meat shield or distraction. Usually I end up dieing instead, but hey, sometimes it works.

Healing guns, HEAL PEOPLE. I use to heal whenever there was a break between waves, but now that healing gives xp I'll play an entire game and get relatively few kills, spending the entire time healing (assuming I get a good healing gun at the beginning). I've seen a direct result from doing this...

1. Yes, my points in a game will drop from the 400-600ish I usually get to maybe 50, but that's okay.

2. I actually get more xp from healing others than fighting (assuming those hurt STAY STILL and I don't get like a healing shield or granade that are a pain to simply shot and fire).

3. The team members last longer before dying, if they die at all. I've seen people heal others and that person that would have died actually pull through a wave by themselves (ex: everyone else dies, last person).

4. Sure helps the LA people out. W/o regen or vamp it's sometimes hard to survive, but their efficiency increases exponentially when someone's standing behind them healing.

I've watched scores increase, games last longer, and with enough team work I've played a couple games were 4 people (no bots) beat wave 16.

A side note on team work: Healing is a two way deal. Not counting Nali and their instant kill, my largest complaint are people who are almost dead and low on health, or could use an hp "topping off" actually run away when I shot them! It says on the HUD that they've been healed and they still run away. I've seen some players actually make u-turn's to avoid my healing!

There's other ways too. When people die they can still spectate, on the harder waves why not act as recon for those still playing? This happens sometimes, but is a definite benefit to request it more often.

Lastly, "deemer/ion up" is a popular thing to say, but that's teamwork too. Sure helps me out. Just wish I knew were it was half the time, lol.

Or am I wrong and does teamwork suck?

As a LA player, I know that my health is one of my problem areas, especially if I am in a in-the-face mode where I get right up on top of the bug. Even with my health maxed out so that I start at 300, there are times I definitely can use healing, especially if I have a rage weapon. But there are times when I will "run away", as I am so far down and it is late enough in a wave where I would be better off ghosting (and restarting with 300 health) than to take up the resources getting healed.

As for my adren, it is up to almost 190, which means that I can almost make a weapon, wait a few and try it again. So I spend quite a bit of adren in trying to make what I referred to as a VVE weapon...Vamp, Vorpal or Energy. Vamp gets me health, Vorpal kills the big bugs like the Titans (those waves I tend to use the double magic or triple), and energy makes it so I can do my thing. If I get a normal + weapon on either rocket or flak, I will max it out to a +5, and generally work the others until I have my VVEs. Now Rage weapons have complicated this, and I am almost as much in love with it as with the vorpal, if I can get enough health (like with a vamp rocket, or flak). So now it is more like VVER.

So here is my favorite weapon lineup...

Vamp rocket or flak
Energy (or rage) flak or rocket
Vorpal LG or Sniper
Any other weapons I can get as vamp, max normal + or energy, or a healing flak (for self heals)

Oh...and throw in a infinite shock or RL from time to time, and I am quite happy.
But notice up until now I have not mentioned the shock. It is definitely a weapon for using in combo mode. But a vorpal shock is asking for trouble, as I have vorpaled myself reflecting it off of a queen or metal skarjj.

And I will also again mention that the LG or sniper is great for titan waves...hitting them just before they throw helps keep the rocks from flying quite so much. Do it with a VVER, and it can be even better.

So if you see me in, and you have a VVER weapon you are willing to part with, or happen to have a lg, sniper, flak, or rocket where there is not one, feel free to toss it my way.

And with denial 3, it is rare I will not finish up the map with it!

la_bomba wrote:

Thanks for the teleporter tip, learn something every day!
...
4. Sure helps the LA people out. W/o regen or vamp it's sometimes hard to survive, but their efficiency increases exponentially when someone's standing behind them healing.
...
A side note on team work: Healing is a two way deal. Not counting Nali and their instant kill, my largest complaint are people who are almost dead and low on health, or could use an hp "topping off" actually run away when I shot them! It says on the HUD that they've been healed and they still run away. I've seen some players actually make u-turn's to avoid my healing!

There's other ways too. When people die they can still spectate, on the harder waves why not act as recon for those still playing? This happens sometimes, but is a definite benefit to request it more often.

Lastly, "deemer/ion up" is a popular thing to say, but that's teamwork too. Sure helps me out. Just wish I knew were it was half the time, lol.

Or am I wrong and does teamwork suck?

Here's a few basic tips for the translocator.

Particularly for new players, the translocator is your get out of jail free card. When you're just starting out, you'll find that you can hang till a certain wave and then you start getting stomped.

I remember early on I was fine until wave 6 (a titan wave) and then I'd get killed. Then, from wave 7 onward, I would die almost every wave. As I got better and my stats improved, I'd be good until wave 10, and then once again get smacked around after that.

The first thing I did was bind my tranlocator to my mouse wheel button so that it was always at the ready when I needed it. Your trans has to be instantly at the ready at all times.

Then, in the wave before the wave I usually started dying on, I would start hunting for a place to put it.

Finding a good spot just takes knowing the maps. But if you're dead anyway, you should spectate the high level players (particularly the Artifacts/junkie players) on wave 16 because they know the good spots.

When finding a spot, the first consideration is whether or not it's safe. The second consideration is the goodies nearby. Most of the time you don't get both.

Particularly at lower levels, on the tough waves, plant your trans somewhere and go hunting. At the very first sign of being in trouble, transloc out of there. Plant your trans again and repeat. Since exp is based on damage, your only goal is to just get some damage on the monsters and stay alive.

Another important use of the trans is in getting health, powerups, etc. Again, this is why you need it instantly at the ready. I see players running for powerups all the time only to get swooped on by someone who translocs in and grabs the power up. Whether or not you think this is "rude", the fact remains it's a fast-paced game and you have to move fast or lose out. When you see something you want or need, pull out your trans and get there as quickly as you can.

Im also a LA freak.

1) Weapons.

For the First 5 Waves, ill try building my weapons.

I try to put a very good magic effect on my weapons of choice.

Shock, Link, Mini, Flak. And i max it.

If i am lucky and its still not wave 6, i try to get a healing Rocket. And max it.

2) EXP

I bound my Sniper gun to mouse 5 side button.

As soon as i see a Nali i run and HUG it very fast and headshot it.

By wave 4 i get my Head Hunter Bonus.

3) Try to Survive.

On subsequent waves. i try to keep my Adrhenaline high and use the Tripple damage on Titans/Queens/Warlords.

If i ever get in trouble i switch on Inbvulnerability, and try to flee.

--
Most of the time, i fail to succeed to #3. And i end up loosing all my weapons and unable to do anything on maps without Ammo. But this is gonna change, once i get Ghost, Denial 3, Resupply and ... and...

[KitFox wrote:

But this is gonna change, once i get Ghost, Denial 3, Resupply and ... and...

Try getting it in reverse order.

Continuum wrote:

Waves 1-5:
...
Third is the RL if I get any type of damage bonus on it I can kill anything with one or two shots from it and with maxed wep speed the rate of fire is pretty high, it just doesnt work well from a distance (or up close)

I guess I'd also use the flak if it was a good one or if I ended up with an inf link/mini that would probably be my weapon of choice.

I don't know why it does not work well from a distance for you, but I agree that it is almost suicidal to use it up close. I used to drive friends nuts by peeking around a corner, doing what I call "rocket sniping". This is where you get a rocket lock while loading all three rounds, and then disappearing back around the corner once they went flying. On Lillandri (sp), Healpod, or a few of the other UT99 maps, they would go nuts trying to find me in a DM/TDM/LMS match, as they never know where I was going to next be shooting from. And in INV, the same technique works for many of the bugs, though some of them can manage to dodge about 50% of the time.