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AntiCamper on the DC server (round 3, Fight!)  XML
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Szlat

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Joined: 05/18/2005 18:32:41
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1+
The Admins have a right to play. They still have language/behaviour issues to deal with. If this mod takes one load off them to give them chance to enjoy playing more, then I am for it. This server is a great server, mainly down to Druid, Shantara and the other Admins who police it, and they deserve our support. I haven't seen one of them voting against it.
If that means some maps are not playable, delete the maps.
If that means some styles of play no longer work, change your style of play.
But give the admins the same freedom we have.
emetakleze

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cplmac wrote:
Ahh the old spider mine issue, so glad that one is over.
Now
FINISH HIM 


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TheDruidXpawX

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Joined: 12/19/2004 18:32:13
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Continuum wrote:
maybe but possible) to create bot paths wherever a player goes so that monsters could always get there
 


Yup, it's possible, it just requires a map edit.

If there's a map in particular you'd like to fix, I'm all ears on working maps...

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The fundamental problem is this: The first word we learn as children is NO. From that point forward society teaches women that saying no isn't polite, and society teaches men to respect those who wont take no for an answer.

The world is what you make of it, my friend. If it doesn't fit, you make alterations. -- Stella, The Morning Star
Spacey

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Szlat wrote:
1+
The Admins have a right to play. They still have language/behaviour issues to deal with. If this mod takes one load off them to give them chance to enjoy playing more, then I am for it. This server is a great server, mainly down to Druid, Shantara and the other Admins who police it, and they deserve our support. I haven't seen one of them voting against it.
If that means some maps are not playable, delete the maps.
If that means some styles of play no longer work, change your style of play.
But give the admins the same freedom we have. 


Unlike what Szlat seems to be implying (from my PoV anyways), I do not think that Admins should not play. Nor did I ever say or imply this. Indeed, I would love to see more of Dru and Shan in the games, just like in what now seems to be the ancient times. Unfortunately, even with the AC mod, we see them nowhere near as frequently as we used to see them.

But succinctly, the point of my message was that there are still some flaws in the Dru's AC mod, and that they come out at the worst of times, while you are doing something which is otherwise perfectly normal and reasonable for any player to do. As I have previously pointed out, a anti-camper mod is unfortunately a difficult item to create. They all have had (and will continue to have) their problems, in part because of the problems with the AI which drives the bots/monsters, and in part because of the mediocrity of the maps when you look at the details beneath the surface (feel free to ask for details). Add in the variability between maps, and the difficulty of the problem approaches (and may exceed) that of solving Fermat's Last Theorem (and that does not even consider trying to write an AC mod for multiple game types). The end result is that there is no AC mod out there which fully works. Instead, you end up with the problems like being declared OOB in what would otherwise be a perfectly acceptable location, just becase the stupid bugs happened to spawn elsewhere on the map and there is an obstruction between you and the bug. Fortunately, Dru's mod mostly works pretty well, and in the ways in which it does not (like killing the deemer while you are flying it so that it can tell you that you are standing too close to the deemer spawn), Dru has been able to improve it significantly (though, as I noted, there is still the need for some tweeking). But unfortunately, the biggest remaining problem (such as being OOB in the middle of the floor of MPC-FamilyRoom) is also going to be the hardest to fix. It is the old 80/20 rule, it stinks, but Dru and I as professional programmers both know it is a fact of life. So we cannot just say "if you have moved M map units in time T1, you are not OOB" . Nor can we simply say "If you have H hits on bugs or D damage from bugs in time T2".

Now, it has been mentioned that we should perhaps drop maps where the AC mod has a problem. I personally do not think of that as a desirable solution. Many of the maps are just too darned small for the 18-20 players and the associated bugs. Even some of the medium size maps are too small, and people end up getting spawn killed as we all pop into the map. And in the small ones, we end up getting killed because we are all crowded in to the point where we constantly suffer splash damage. This is all a small part of the reason why I like larger maps. Nor is modifying the maps to modify pathing a really good solution, since you not only have to download the map from the DC "server", but you stand a reasonable chance of ending up with a cache conflict.

Lastly, regarding the suggestion of changing playing style...I won't say what I truely think here, except that it is not anywhere near as easy as some might think it to be. And with that, I do have to wonder if there is a lack of true understanding about skills for things like martial arts, piloting combat aircraft, etc. The better the base skill of the person, the more you are going to be talking about a very ingrained style, muscle memory, and reflexive responses, in turn making it more difficult to change.

BTW...I notice that a few people have problems with how some folks are racking up huge scores by crawling in behind some obstruction and tossing out spider mines. What Dru has done so far has made that more difficult, but if we wanted to make that more difficult, then we just do something like less ammo, capped at a lower point regardless of ammo bonus, and resupplying at a much slower rate.


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LA -- *BEL*_e (level 283 - Extreme AM), LW -- *BEL*_o (level 26) MM - ?? ( *BEL*_Rolaids ?? *BEL*DrWho??, Engineer... *BEL*BS_E_E [BSEE '89, Ohio U] (level 22)

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cplmac

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Spacey
BTW...I notice that a few people have problems with how some folks are racking up huge scores by crawling in behind some obstruction and tossing out spider mines. What Dru has done so far has made that more difficult, but if we wanted to make that more difficult, then we just do something like less ammo, capped at a lower point regardless of ammo bonus, and resupplying at a much slower rate. 


This horse has been beaten into submission already, the number of spider mines a player is allowed (any player) has been capped at two, except on VINV maps where it has been capped at four.

good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
TheDruidXpawX

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I've heard enough responses from the Admins and contributors, both in this forum and outside it at this point that I can say without a doubt that the mod will not be going away.

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The fundamental problem is this: The first word we learn as children is NO. From that point forward society teaches women that saying no isn't polite, and society teaches men to respect those who wont take no for an answer.

The world is what you make of it, my friend. If it doesn't fit, you make alterations. -- Stella, The Morning Star
Chyster

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Yihaw




If at first you don't friccasee, fry, fry a hen.
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TheDruidXpawX

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Spacey wrote:
Unlike what Szlat seems to be implying (from my PoV anyways), I do not think that Admins should not play. Nor did I ever say or imply this. 

I didn't get this impression at all; but I can understand how you did.

You, Spacey, do not take away our time when we don't have the anti-camper on. The players for whom the anti caper was intended did often take away our in game time.

Here's a standard story for you:
1 ) For someone who joins and immediately starts hiding out we kick them, and usually we die due to the effort involved in kicking them.

2 ) Next up, they come back, maybe another admin who wasn't involved the first time kicks them again and dies.

3 ) On a lucky chance, we finally sync up and see it again, this time we ban them. (Another wave down)

4 ) We get the "Why was I banned" email in the admin box. Then we have to consult the other admins about why they were banned if it isn't clear.

5 ) Once the investigation is complete, we email them back and say "You were banned because x."

6 ) Next we get the "I'm sorry" email, to which we usually respond with a if you agree to follow all the rules, you can come back.

7 ) They agree to the rules, and we have to find and unban them.

8 ) They return and about half the time, return to step one and continue through step 6. (We don't unban them again)

I wouldn't be surprised if an entire game, or even more has been wasted by this single bad apple. Before the anticamper I'd suspect the admins were dealing with no fewer than one player every other game.

I understand that your intent is not to advocate for the people who waste our time; however the consequences of your post do advocate for them.

Spacey wrote:
Indeed, I would love to see more of Dru and Shan in the games, just like in what now seems to be the ancient times. Unfortunately, even with the AC mod, we see them nowhere near as frequently as we used to see them. 


You have no visibility into how much more this has allowed us to play.

Spacey wrote:
But succinctly, the point of my message was that there are still some flaws in the Dru's AC mod, and that they come out at the worst of times, while you are doing something which is otherwise perfectly normal and reasonable for any player to do. 

I would like to understand these better, as I've tried really freaking hard to make sure they don't happen.

I make sure to do no warning and no count down if there's an opponent that has you in a visible line of sight.
I give you a full re-spawn for every single life.
I give you 15 seconds of visible count down.
Ten of those seconds count down audibly so you know you're in danger.
If at any time you enter an opponent's visible range, you stop counting down until the battle is over.
The nuke isn't supposed to get aborted anymore.

What else is causing you such difficulty?

Spacey wrote:
Instead, you end up with the problems like being declared OOB in what would otherwise be a perfectly acceptable location, just becase the stupid bugs happened to spawn elsewhere on the map and there is an obstruction between you and the bug. 


Literally, if you get an out of bounds message, the game will not spawn a monster at your location & will not move a monster to your location under any circumstances. The best chance the AI has of finding you is if it can actively see you; otherwise it will stand around and wait for a player to re-enter the area it can navigate to.

Spacey wrote:
But unfortunately, the biggest remaining problem (such as being OOB in the middle of the floor of MPC-FamilyRoom) is also going to be the hardest to fix.  

Probably by getting recompiled for 2004 or deleted. This map was written for the 2003 engine. The sheer amount of discussion around this map has made it clear in my mind that not deleting it sooner was a mistake.

Spacey wrote:
Now, it has been mentioned that we should perhaps drop maps where the AC mod has a problem. I personally do not think of that as a desirable solution. 


It's desirable to me for reasons of my sanity and time. In addition if there's a map we really want to keep, the anticamper can be disabled on a map by map basis.

Spacey wrote:
Nor is modifying the maps to modify pathing a really good solution, since you not only have to download the map from the DC "server", but you stand a reasonable chance of ending up with a cache conflict. 

I'd like to know more about this. Have you experienced this since the 3339 patch? As far as I know, they tweaked things in 3339 so that you can have multiple copies of the same code/maps on your machine in your cache and with the hash it knows which to load.

In addition, any maps I've had to edit (for other reasons mainly) I've changed the name on so that this very thing doesn't happen.

Spacey wrote:
Lastly, regarding the suggestion of changing playing style...I won't say what I truely think here, except that it is not anywhere near as easy as some might think it to be. 


That's OK, go snipe. Wait until you get a warning and 3 seconds left and then go back in a navigable area, if there's monsters visible you wont even get the warning. I'm not saying getting the warning is bad, nor is getting re-spawned bad. Get the warning, get re-spawned. I don't really care

Spacey wrote:
BTW...I notice that a few people have problems with how some folks are racking up huge scores by crawling in behind some obstruction and tossing out spider mines. 


This is mostly taken care of by the anticamper forcing people out of these holes. The AI can navigate there, so if you irritate it, it will move in. It's been further resolved by only allowing 2 active mines...

Even before the mines were limited, you can score much better by being an active fighter.

Skin download: http://www.disastrousconsequences.com/dcforum/posts/list/1189.page

The fundamental problem is this: The first word we learn as children is NO. From that point forward society teaches women that saying no isn't polite, and society teaches men to respect those who wont take no for an answer.

The world is what you make of it, my friend. If it doesn't fit, you make alterations. -- Stella, The Morning Star
Deunan

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I like the Gulliver type maps.. Its soooo nice to be able to sniper again!

never interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake!

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disastrous



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I'll throw in another vote for the anti-camper mod. While it been annoying in a few spots the positives far outweigh the negatives.

The only map I've seen it to be seriously broken is the Family Room map. All the rest seem to handle it reasonably.
Spacey

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Very extremely majorly annoying, yes. But I would rather be able to play gulliver maps than not, and rather see Dru on than not. So on the +1, 0, -1 scale, my initial answer would be somewhere between +0.25 and -0.6, with an median of -0.25. And applying the nint() function to get you the integer answer, I guess it ends up being around a 0, with occasional -1's. Nudge. Nudge. Know what I mean?

BTW Dru, the "Spacey doesn't like" would probably be better as "Spacey is annoyed with".

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Szlat

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Last night playing on map colonial I got stuck in a cabin. Couldn't open the door or translocate out of the window. Would have had to stay the whole game in there, disconnect & reconnect, or kill myself - losing the weapons I had. Anticamper counted me out and moved me back into the game.
So it has it's good points as well.
DaRedeye


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1+ Get rid of DM-MPC-THE-FAMILYROOM

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PyRo

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i agree with that, i played on it tonight (i know i know i actually gotback on the server :p) But it was really annoying when theres one bug eft and its across the family room. So i like the AC just not that map!

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NeedMoreNinjas



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+0
I'm usually not clever enough to find a good hiding spot anyways. If I want to get away from monsters for a few secs I just activate boots of flight and fly around like an idiot for a while.
 
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